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Can you elaborate on the structure that suggests this is a female? Understand that I see it as such too. I just want to better understand all the "Why" and "How" stuff in life.

 

It's just the way the face is shaped - a more narrow jaw, rounded cheeks and so forth. It's what we consider a feminine shape, and we read it as such.

Plus, y'know, Sade's avatar looks a bit like Jane Lane from Daria:

 

I thought it *Was* Jane. (With some careful make-up or slight modifications.)

You know, those things can be equally present in a male without looking feminine. Narrow Jaw, Rounded cheeks, the angle of the eyebrows. I still see it, but I do not understand why exactly it is that I see these things as feminine when there are men who look similar.

(And before anyone implies or asks, I am a heterosexual male. I have never found any male attractive whatsoever, but I have nothing against those that do. No-one gets up around puberty and decides what they will like. They simply do like certain things. Honestly I am a bit of a homophobe. But I realize that is improper and unfair. I try to measure my responses not by what a person looks like or what they like, but by what they do.)

I am a skinny and small male. If I shaved and applied makeup I bet I could look like a woman by the characteristics described above. But it is never that simple. Think of transgendered people. They do not usually look like the gender they intend to be. No amount of cosmetic surgery will make them look as they want. There is something that we are either not discussing or that eludes our comprehension about how gender is perceived.

I would say that was my two cents worth, but it is more like about two dollars worth of text. So I will finally shut up and end this post. /rant off

 

Meh, you're splitting hairs. Ta-tas. Knockers. Boobies. Chest pillows. Milk jugs. Gazungas. Lovely lady lumps. Hooters. They're there. I can see them. I can tell from the pixels and from having seen a lot of cartoon breasts in my lifetime.

Looks like Jane Lane is flat enough to land an F-18 on, though :V

 

Amen!

Paint any part of your body how you like. I cannot click "Like" again, so I must follow up and give you a digital and non sexual kiss on the cheek.

I did not intend to spew my current wild theories about life upon others. But I do so with alarming frequency. Please feel free to delete a*ANY* post I make that seems improper. I will attempt to conform.

This *Is* the off-topic discussion area?

 

As I am one, it's quite hard not to. I'm also flat enough to land a whole fighter squadron on. And a bomber squadron.

And you know what? Doesn't make me any less of a woman. Male and female are really just social constructs that the majority tend to - those of us who are trans, intersexed, genderqueer, androgynous and so forth are just a small group (though bigger than you may expect), and yeah...

But I don't know. You can't decide gender based on appearances, but in the vast majority of cases your read will be correct. If you look at David's avatar, you read it as male. That's not to say there aren't women with a similar facial structure to David, though, and women in particular are the ones easiest to misread due to the way the human body develops, and the lines can easily be blurred. I've met plenty of women who could easily pass as men, I've seen women who are more "masculine" than some men. Why? 'cos that's how variation works.

We look for things to tell sex though, and they are physical attributes. A bosom is the most 'in your face' sign, of course. But it's facial structure, hairlines, the jaw, the set of the eyes, lips and so forth. You might not consciously know you're doing it, but when you see a face - in front of you, a photograph, a drawing, a cartoon, anything - your brain looks for things that signals what sex they may be.

Damn it, I forgot my point.

 

When you remember it, I will be waiting with baited breath.

One thing you said confuses me. "The set of the eyes". As far as I know, both males and females have exactly the same structure of eyes. They are in the same place relative to the nose and forehead. They are the same size relative to the size of the head. There is literally no difference I know of that is real.

Hairline is usually a dead giveaway. But I have seen women that had thinning hair and I would wager they were miserable. There is a real double standard there. Men can bald and no-one will make more than passing jokes about it. Women balding are treated as outcasts unfit for modern society.

I grow my hair long and when it is long enough I tie it up and cut it off at the back and send it to one of the many wig makers that use it for hair for cancer patients. The trade-off is that I look a bit awful most of the time. Either a long haired hippy, or a freak with hair all over the place. (Because once you cut off the tail, there is nothing to tie to bind it in place.)

I hate to offend anyone, but I find certain unmentioned Asian cultures to be indistinguishable between the genders. They clearly have no trouble, but I cannot see it at all. Mayhaps I am simply unusual in that regard. Or there may be some social aspect that has not blended into western society enough for all of us to notice.

 

That may very well be true, and chances are I was wrong on it. Would certainly not be the first time.

Yes, and that's wrong. But I disagree with your comment about men - I think they too can be insulted and degraded for it, especially if they're younger. When women are bald, it's generally due to a health issue whereas with men it's a more natural thing. Bald men are nothing new in society, whereas bald women are quite uncommon, at least in my experience. But no, I don't think it's fair to say men are free from scrutiny in that regard, nor is it particularly fair to suggest women with thinning hair are miserable. We're all different.

A lot of Asian, particularly East and South-East Asian, cultures have a third-gender in their society or their culture historically has some link to some form of variance with the "gender norms" - the Hindu people of India, I believe, incorporate what we consider "crossdressing" into their religious ceremonies in various ways.

But that's not to say things are necessarily better. I think it's Pakistan where - if QI was correct - transgendered women are sent by tax collectors in order to embarrass them into paying their taxes. Hardly any better in the Western world, is it?

As for my point, I don't know what it was, but I'll say this as a closure, and hopefully David or one of the other GLG team won't punch me for it. I think the comments regarding how people look - particularly transgendered people - were a little unnecessary. Transpeople go through a lot in their lives, some come out of it better than others, but we're often concerned with our appearance because of what I mentioned in my above post - a transwoman will generally have a different facial structure and build to the average ciswoman (i.e. one who is not transgendered), and as such many transwomen are read as males by some people (and some transmen as women). I don't wish to rest on this too long, but those mixed or seemingly incorrect signals can be absolutely fatal to that transperson. If someone refers to them as "sir", it can affect their self-confidence and make them feel poor, but... that's far from the worst that can happen. Transwomen, in particular, are frequently assaulted - or worse - by people for what they are.

To suggest that "no amount of cosmetic surgery" won't help is damning. I understand you meant no offence, but I fear that all that can be taken from it is offence. It's a reminder of the plight of transwomen, but there are a few ciswomen who also get assaulted and falsely accused of being something they're not due to their looks. Glenn Close, the actress, has a fairly masculine face, does she not? She's a woman, though, right? There's also - at an extreme example - the professional bodybuilding community. A lot of those women are not traditionally feminine in facial structure and it can really throw your "sex radar" off. On the other side of things, look at Andrej Pejic - a very famous androgynous model, and your reading will change constantly.

What I'm saying is this;
We, subconsciously, look for signals as to what someone is and how they are. Skin tone variations can denote sickness or health, the state of one's hair, the fullness of one's face and figure - right down to things like cheekbones, chins, jaw lines and so forth. We subconsciously read them and it tells us about that person. Generally, it's correct in what it tells us, but it isn't always. It can be wrong, and the variation in physical appearance can also confuse it.

But our society, the Western one, does not allow for variation. It is why people of colour are fighting for equality, why those of variant sexualities are, why those of us who don't fit the gender binaries are fighting to speak.

You see the avatar in question as female as that is what the signals are telling you - the hair style, the facial structure, the shoulders. You see them and your brain recognises them as "female", and that is your reading. If you saw a similar avatar with wide shoulders, a square jaw and a different hair style, chances are that you would read it as "male", because those are features typically found in what we consider to be "men".

I think. Sunday evenings are not good brain worky times.

EDIT: Just to point out I'm not an expert on anything. This is all personal opinion gained from personal experience.

 

Well, all I can really say is thank you. You have shed a lot of light on a subject that is almost Heresy to even bring up in Texas where I live.

As my profile here says, I am a "Human" and that is all need be known. (I was speaking of the perception that my handle implies a race.) I think that anyone capable of speaking is clearly a human. Gender be damned. Anyone who prefers to be called Sir need only inform me of that. Likewise for women and even those unfortunate enough to have been injured and no longer have a clear gender. I simply do not care what gender a person is. But I respect it.

I read your reply and I agree entirely. I regret my choice of words about cosmetic surgery. But in general I disapprove of cosmetics in any form anyway. Humans are beautiful the way nature made us. These days most women seem convinced that they need to change themselves to be perceived as attractive. That is simply untrue. I prefer my women without makeup and wearing casual clothes that they feel comfortable in. (Or none at all. Not meant as sexual, rather I do not disapprove of nudism/naturalism.)

I strongly suspect that if people abandoned cosmetics, we would find ourselves happier by far. Sometimes it is the imperfections that draw attention to the natural beauty of a person. I honestly cannot think of a celebrity that is commonly accepted as attractive that I would find attractive.

I am abnormal. I know that. So take my odd comments with a grain of salt.

The best cosmetic any human can wear is a smile.

 

Agreed x3

 

I tend to disagree with cosmetics, too, but for some people - and some communities - access to cosmetics can literally save their life.

 

Dang, this thread veered off-track.

I assumed Sade's avatar was female because boobs.

 

I like surnia1125's avatar. Midna rocks.

 

i dont know if this was specifically about OP's avatar or avatars in general, but i have a new muffin avatar so here i am posting about it because i didnt want to make a new thread and seem egotistical but now this post kind of is woops

 

but

what kind of muffin?

(NO I AM NOT INVITING INNUENDO)

(not deliberately)

 

This is your brain.

<- This is your brain on distilled elven snobbery and sociopathy.

Looks like bran to me. Or maybe butter.