Which is why I like games that give you a lot of minor quests instead of just a few "collect 100 of that" ones. Because that way you move between different areas of similar difficulty a lot and change what you are doing every few minutes, so it doesn't feel that repetitive. And if games do put you in a situation where you have to grind to raise your level enough to keep up with the required level because the quests aren't enough, then there's something wrong with them. But being able to grind but not being required to do so? Meh, that's fine by me, I like the challenge and the option to level up my character(s) before moving further is something I like to have in case I "overchallenged" myself.
I guess I can see the middle ground on this subject. Grinding should not ever be required for most games as it is a nuisance. But keeping it optional should always be possible. I remember a long time ago playing Stonekeep. It had a fixed number of monsters. A fixed amount of loot. And was painfully hard at a few areas. Grinding would have been a welcomed thing in that game. It would have given me a chance to get stronger so I would not have to chain-reload in those few hard areas. And if made right, other gameplay elements could have been put to good use with grinding. Items left behind by slain opponents could be sold to allow the player to get better equipment and even some panic button stuff like healing potions. I enjoyed grinding in DM2. It was not the awful grinding of most MMOs. It was good and well polished grinding that was purely optional. The monsters I fought early on dropped food that I required to stay alive, and I sold boatloads of it for money to buy better gear to continue with less difficulty. Later I grinded on Axe-Men that each dropped one or two Axes that could be sold for even more money to buy the expensive gear that again helped out immensely. MMOs ruined grinding to fatten their wallets. But they are not really games in my opinion anyway. WoW is not something I have ever even seen. But SoD is something I know and found enjoyable. (Shards of Dalaya) What is the big difference? SoD is not commercial. They do not charge you to play. So they offer grinding for those who want it. And with as many players as they have, it is pretty clear that grinding even when awful can be a good thing. (SoD is using the original Everquest engine. It does not suck though, and is many times as hard as EQ was from what I hear. I never played the real EQ either.) Do not hastily say that grinding is bad. If not for grinding, millions of boring people would possibly find other things to do with their dull lives.
In my opinion, if a RPG is built on grinding (Diablo-like games say hello), then the game is a RPG only because someone says that it is and I will never call it a RPG. For example Fallout 1 or 2 (never played 3 so I cannot comment it) offered you special items that you can get if you had appropriate skill, or if you have talked to someone without insulting him/her, or whatever. Sure, if you want to grind so badly, you can do it in any game, but IMO it is a nonsense. Like drugs? QFT
I played the original Diablo for all of a few hours before I deleted it and I have not looked back. Fallout 1/2 were uber RPGs. They had some bad aspects too, but they are some of my favorite time-sinks from yesteryear. I personally believe it is physically impossible to please everyone. You can please most people in a hundred different ways, but never everyone. Drugs are a legitimate hobby that can be enjoyed for years until your organs finally give out. They can be a worthwhile endeavorer too. But most of the few that remain legal in most parts of the world are only legal because they will leave you in the emergency room of your local hospital with undeniable evidence that you used them. Here in the USA it is even possible to get a prison sentence for discussing such things, despite our so called freedom of speech. (Any part of this that sounds like I condone illicit activities is incorrect. I do not want to share a cell with Bubba for suggesting or implying a means to engage in illicit activities.) Games like Torchlight are pure suckage. They are grind-fests with no way to play besides mindlessly grinding. They have the audacity to call themselves an RPG. Pffft. Pen and paper RPGs should be a college course. It should be a required degree to make something they pretend is an RPG. Pen and Paper RPGs strongly discourage grinding. They do so because the players would bitch-slap the DM for making them fight an endless string of goblins/kobolds and whatever else rather than bother to be creative. In short, I agree that a RPG is built upon things other than grinding. Grinding can still be used, but it should be well worth the bother or it should be removed entirely. And even when present, it should remain optional. That is why DM2 was so good an example. You *Could* grind like crazy. Or you could play through like you were doing a speed-run. I grind in games like that by choice. I wanted better skills and more mana/stamina/health for the more difficult areas later on.
Sure, but later you'll have to grind the real-life money to get some more drugs Oh, the sweet irony. USA, the country of freedom.....(no offence, though) I liked in the M&M games that you could play it continually, without need to grind, until you were stubbornly trying to clear out higher level zones/dungeons in a war of attrition. Of course, I've played only those older ones (6-8), so the older may be worse in this regard. On a side note, unlike you, I actually like HoMM games, they give new life and perspective to the series and game world and if JVC's wife didn't want it, the games would probably not appear at all. Also this free game might interest you, although it is not finished yet.
That game does interest me. I appreciate the link. I take no offense to any jokes made about the sad state of laws in the USA. We have fallen from the grace of freedom that we used to maintain as a standard to look up to throughout the world. We are quickly turning into a corrupt land of corporate shills. But I had better stop before this rant turns into a massive wall of boring text. The saving grace of the M&M games was the sheer size of the world. You *Did* grind throughout the world. But few things were ever repetitive. You could also avoid half the fights in the game and you did not have to bother with side quests unless you wanted to. I played M&M 1-(8?) and found it great fun. I also tried to explore every dungeon and find everything in every area. I bumped into every wall to see if it was real. I killed every hostile monster. I died a boatload of times. It was great fun and probably several solid years of diversion. As for the difference between the older and the newer M&M games, there was little difference at all. The newer were actually harder in some areas since they expected half the people to reuse character from the older games.
I have now read about American Nazi Party member lobbying in your Congress. In the light of anything the USA has done *against* its people, this made me laugh hard. That and a facepalm which made me fall off my chair (well, kinda). But to be on topic - I would *really* love to play LoG, but my sorry excuse of a PC won't be able to run it. Single core 3GHz, hell, I even have SDRAM (2GB, though). Until I scramble money for a new PC, I can only dream about playing LoG.
Easy solution: Create your own party, create wizard, do not spend any skillpoint. Pick up scroll? -> Spend skillpoints for that school.
True, but then if you had an element in mind you wanted to specialize in you can forget it. Only quite late in game that you find some of the spells.
I just installed and played the GoG version of the original HoM&M. I only played a few minutes really, but it was enough to remind me why I did not enjoy it. I simply hate strategy. I can see the RPG elements, but that is not enough for my tastes. I do not want to give orders to units under my command. Rather I enjoy the immersion of *Being* the unit(s) I command. Honestly it was not nearly as bad as I recall. But I uninstalled it and will not install again, nor retain it for later play. I am starting to really like GoG. Sadly this means I will have even less money than the nearly non-existent money I currently have saved for the keyboard and a few newer games. (Those things are referenced in other threads.) I am already off topic. I just wanted to confirm I do pay attention to what others say and try to see their point of view. Now back to Digglepocalypse.
Actually in Stonekeep there were a few areas (more specifically eairly on) that had respawning creatures, however there were things you did in the game as you progressed through that stoped the respawn from happening (making them easy to miss). Most noteable ones were heading into the sewers stoped ants re-spawning, while draining the sewers stoped the slimes re-spawaning, others were typicaly shut off by entering into certain areas. That said you could always train attack skills in the dwarven hold on the 'flint rock', though that resulted more so in sticking down mouse buttons and leaving the game running. Unfortunatly the term PRG on computer games is used for any game that has persistent character development outside of gear or power ups.
I know that was about two weeks ago, but I have to bite. You mean the Heroes spin-off which is a turn-based army battle game set in the same universe and is in no way a replacement of the M&M games, not to mention it's based off JVC's earlier King's Bounty game? HoMM was never intended to replace M&M and vice versa, so you can't say they "ruined" the series. Because they didn't. At all. Ever. Ahem. Grimrock's a game I've got my eye on but I'm not sure I want to get it. If they release a demo at some point, I'll give it a go.
Almost a year later, and I finally get my grubbies on a copy. Been playing 10-15 minutes, maybe, with the pre-set party. Enjoying myself, actually.
