Project: Community Skills Guide

Oh yeah, Unholy Warcry is terrific for finding breakable walls.

 

I found the shout to be pretty sexy on a pure crossbolt character.

 

Since I'll be out of town this weekend this midweek update is our only Skill Guide update for the week. So let's choose something people seem to have mixed feelings about. Like...

Dual Wield
Type: Warrior
Role: Engine
Dual Wield will be a defining part of your build from minute one, or whenever you can find that second weapon.
Theme: Anything Worth Doing Once...
Strategy:
Two-fisted brawling. And lots of counter attacks. Combat Momentum encourages brawling as much and with as many enemies as possible, since it will stack every time you hit, even on counter attacks.
Pros:
Twice the damage is twice the fun. Killing enemies twice as fast means less damage taken and less health lost. And the counter attack stat is really the warrior's greatest time gaining ability (it negates an attack and gives you a free one, essentially stealing a monster's turn and giving you one). Dual Wield also lets you take advantage of weapons with procs twice as often, and even the same proc stacks. It's very powerful even with no points put into it, although all the levels, and the Combat Momentum proc in particular, are nice additions to any melee fighter's abilities.
Cons:
That weapon takes up an item slot usually reserved for other purposes. Shields are a warrior's primary source of magic resist and reflect, giving them up can really hurt. If your aim is 100 block, using a shield is a major step in the right direction. Tome procs, particularly the Tome of Too Much Information, Handbook of Bee Culture, Malleus Maleficarium and Universal Principles, can be incredibly useful to warriors, to say nothing of the exotic damage. Another thing to consider when reaching for that second weapon. You get none of the skill bonuses for Dual Wielding without a second weapon, so if you want to switch back and forth know you'll have a dead skill half the time.
Synergies:
Dual Wielding doubles your weapon skill bonuses, so taking Swords with it makes you a counter attack machine. Master of Arms or Shield Master make up for some of that block and AA lost from a shield. Or take Assassination to steal as much time from enemies as possible. Run roughshod over mobs with Piracy's Swashbuckling, than use Mists of the Corsair to take your distance. Two of Berserk Rage's procs have more chances to proc the more you hit, so a higher counter attack giving more hits is nice. High levels of the Staves skill grant a magic power bonus which doubles nicely when you use two.
Takeaway:
A powerful offensive skill, and not just for warriors, but deceptive as what you give up is often very, very useful.

 

I take dual wield even on my most squishy mages. They literally die in a hit on later levels without good equipment, but the damage is unparalleled.

I also never put a single point into it until I have nothing at all better to invest in. The mere presence of the skill choice is enough to carry you all the way through unless you are a melee monster and need all the melee boosts you can get. Even then, the rewards are probably better gained from other things.

 

hahaha Lorrelian I love your joke about how not using shields is a negative thing and they are a primary source magic resist. Anyways....

Dual Wield is pretty much the way to go for melee builds, especially if you are not using mods. Dual wield is more important skill to a melee build than any weapon skill tree. Melee is pretty weak in this game because you put yourself in hitting range to fight. Most of the time you will take 2-4 hits to kill a monster. That can hurt you quite a bit and put you in a bad situation. On later floors you can run into an unlucky critical hit counter critical hit from a Muscle diggle and taking 100+ damage in a single turn. Doubling you melee power halves the amount of times you get hit in the game. That saves you thousands of points of damage over the course the game. It is the most defensive and offensive skill tree for melee build there is. You really only need the first level of dual wield; the rest of the tree is just an added bonus and those bonus are pretty good too. I wouldn't run a melee build without dual wield.

 

Name me a better source of resist and reflect for warriors. Is there anything better than the mirror shield? No. There's not. Celestial Circle costs mana and a turn, plus it makes you stationary and mana drain can bottom it out surprisingly fast, plus its no help against Lingering Missiles, one of the most aggravating effects in the game. It sure won't help you when its time to clear a zoo full of Octos or Red Deths and has no chance of bouncing bolt traps back to their source. The one thing it won't help you against is corruption, but since you're free to move you're free to manuever for position and shoot down corrupting monsters. Mirror Shield = Best Magic Defense for Warriors. Period.

 

I meant for my post to be more a poking fun rather than insult, so I am sorry if it insulted you in anyway. Though I do use Celestial Circle as my primary source of magic resist.

 

Those of you who think muscle diggles are dangerous need to buy some armor with higher AA. Around 25 AA, muscle diggles stop being able to hurt you. And guess what? Plate with a shield will get you the whole way there.

 

Doesn't a critical hit from a muscle diggle do around 50 damage?

 

Or more.

I have lost ~70 HP in a single hit from those behemoths.

 

Get more armor.

 

Crit-counter-crit also got "removed" in 1.10 due to the changes in the order that defenses are calculated, unless I'm horribly mistaken. Makes life a little easier for melee these days.

 

It's not removed, it's just much, much rarer now that any successful Block, Dodge, or Counter roll can negate a crit.

 

Mirror Darkly shields have slightly better reflect for a price. If your resists are high enough though, you never feel it. I carried two after making a compact with the diggle god of death... good times.

Dual wield though, I'm a bit on the fence about. I've had a successful run with it but still mourned the loss of my shield most of the way through. You are much more vulnerable with DW especially to ranged magical attacks, but for sheer damage output to a single target, nothing can best it.

I suggest pairing it with smithing to get your armor up in the early stages of the game. Some nice shiny weapons are good too but armor is the most important. DW might halve your time taking damage but even 1 or 2 damage a hit can add up really fast especially in the early to mid game. Smithing also adds some damage and resist bonuses with the latest dlc making it an even more solid choice.

 

It is true, using a mirror shield is pretty great. But you can use that mirror shield even if you have DW. And the 95% of the time that you don't need the mirror shield? You can just slaughter things in melee.

Also, while I'm picking nits, DW is also a great way to deal damage to groups - via AoE attack skills. I've had a blast running this warrior build:

Swords, Axes, Maces, Dual Wield, Berserk, Master of Arms, Smithing.

In this case DW also gives you a chance to proc multiple "on hit" effects from each weapon.

 

I agree with Fax. I much prefer sword and board, despite the fact its arguably slightly UP (gishes have lots of weapon independent damage)

 

Agreed. With enough armor, muscle diggles are pushovers. Named ones on the other hand... *shudder*

 

Not upset, just not sure why people are always bashing on shields. They seem really, really underappricated. If I seemed upset its probably because text doesn't really convey most of the communications cues you get in person.

Also, never really been that scared of muscle diggles. Then again, I've always been more about raw AA and piercing resist, so I've never gotten hit by them very hard. The Other taxa terrifies me below DL 9. They're just mean.

 

And we're back! Hopefully y'all have been testing 1.0.11 more than I have, since we're gonna talk about crafting, and I haven't used it much post-expansion.

Tinkering
Type: Rogue
Role: Fuel Tank or Turbocharger
Tinkering is immensely useful to both a melee fighter, as a source of absurd amounts of melee damage, and crossbow users, as an almost unlimited source of bolts.
Theme: You have the technology! You can make him, yadda, yadda, yadda...
Strategy:
Tinkering provides you with a lot, and I do mean a lot, of upgrade potential. Tinkering is all about folding your reagents down into ever-more-compact packages that will increase your death dealing potential. Better crossbows. Clockwork gear. Crossbows o' doom. Build. Expand. Conquer.
Pros:
The best crossbows in the game can be crafted with this skill and, when maxed out, it gives 12 (12!!!!!) ingenuousnessly scythed bolts from a single ingot. Put the two together and you're hell on wheels. Literally if you choose to craft clockwork power gear, which frequently provides far more melee power bonuses than you could hope to get from any other piece of gear. While melee power is better for throwing weapons than bolts, it does give you options. The chain axe/sword and clockwork thunderclap are solid, single damage type weapons for the end game, even if they aren't anything to write home about most of the time they are really good for killing Dredmor, since they'll only hit his AA and not his exotic resistances. Even mages love the trapskill and trapsight.
Cons:
All the best recipes are hidden, leaving you at the mercy of the RNG, particularly if you're looking for melee boosting gear. Not recommended for fans of NTTG unless they're willing to live with a little disappointment now and then. Also, while not a power consideration, if you absolutely can't stand the thought of needing to pull up your inventory more than three times per floor and sorting through stuff, or consulting your recipe list every time you find an unfamiliar reagent then this skill is not for you. Unless you just want bolts, Tinkering is a very time intensive crafting skill, and if you're not using it every run you'll need to look over your recipes every so often to keep ingredients freshly in mind.
Synergies:
Tinkering rocks with the Crossbow skill, since it really, seriously boosts the effectiveness of all crossbows. That said, Tinkering doesn't need the Crossbow skill to make you an awesome archer. The reverse is not true. Something to keep in mind. Perception makes it much easier to get your hands on all the ingredients you need to keep cranking out ammo and other crap.
Takeaway:
One important thing to keep in mind about crafting skills is that they are almost always getting better, with each patch adding new craftables, hidden and basic, to every skill and just about every skill level. They're only going to get better as time goes on. That said, they're not for everyone. Tinkering is a powerful skill for people who see resource management and attrition as an important part of victory, but people who want to ignore those aspects are free to do so and still be just as powerful as other players. Or almost, at least.

 

Lorrelian has done an excellent job of summing up the pros and cons of the tinkerer. I'll just add this.

Tinkering has excellent synergies with smithing since much of the best melee gear is clockwork and those clockwork recipes generally require items that are crafted via Black smithing. (chain axe, thunderclap, boilerplate, etc.) Powerful clockwork items can be found on the lower levels of the dungeon subject to RNG but for a touch of reliability a bit of both worlds does the job admirably. Getting the right recipes is still subject to RNG however... so your mileage may vary.

It should also be noted that the new DLC adds the Clockwork Knight and Rogue Scientist skill trees, which both synergise EXTREMELY well with tinkering.