Dungeons of Dredmor is by no means fully balanced yet at this point, and theres still content being added, so additional game modes are probably low priority, however for a bit of additional fun and to potentially draw in some of the really hardcore or more traditional roguelike players, here is an idea that could expand the replayability of Dredmor even further. Keep in mind that this should be a fully optional mode, just like permadeath. Each game should be able to independently select difficulty, permadeath, and default or semi hardcore mode so that this does not affect players who do not want it. This is going to be a long post, for those of you who dont want to read it fully, i am suggesting ways to implement consumable items which are randomized (unidentified) for each different character, and also trying to tackle the various problems associated with doing so. Please comment and support this idea if you like it so that the developers might see or consider it. Semi Hardcore mode: The purpose of this mode is to increase the replayability of Dredmor even further by randomizing the effects of consumables. Each potion, food item, mushroom, drink, wand, throwable, and arrow starts unidentified and uses a generic or randomized template icon and description. Some new artwork *might* be needed here, but nothing fancy. There are two main ways of doing this. #1: You could simply randomize the artwork for those items. Might end up with potions of acid looking like potions of health. Randomized items would then have a generic description of 'This potion looks [color of artwork]' or "This potion smells [adjective]' Some easy and slightly themed examples would be: "This potion is as red as an angry diggle." or "This potion smells of batty droppings." Upon consuming the item, the description would be changed back to the original identified description for the item, but the item artwork would not. Considerations for #1: Having a potion that clearly looks green with the description saying 'this potion is red' probably wont be a good idea. So the description of the potion would need to be tied to the item's graphic. The unidentified item description should -not- help in identifying the item. There could be multiple versions of the unidentified flavor text that change for each different playthrough, its easy enough to create a list of one-line descriptions for each item. 'this potion is green, this potion smells foul, this potion is the color of a sickly diggle.' Ultimately the item artwork and description should be totally independent of the item function. But the unidentified item artwork description should be linked so that you dont end up with 'green artwork and' 'red flavor' text. Having a bolt of mass destruction with the pink artwork of a plastic arrow wouldnt normally make much sense, just like having a wooden bolt with the art work of the BOMD wouldnt either. This could be seen as unintuitive, however since the game is meant to be a bit silly, perhaps that would work out just fine. My #2 idea takes into account these considerations. I would love to encounter an item with the artwork of the bolt of mass destruction that contained the flavor text of "This bolt looks impressive" and have it turn out to be a very crappy arrow however. This would increase the difficulty of crafting, as items would probably need to be identified before crafting components could be used / considered by the autocomplete. As of this time i am not sure how to change the crafting menu to work with this option without either providing spoilers for what each item actually does, or a more fundamental change in how crafting works with this mode enabled. Perhaps only recipes which you know, and have identified the items for should show up in the craftable list? Perhaps bookshelves should randomly identify one of the the items in your inventory as well as giving crafting recipes? "You have learned something new, from reading of all things." #2 You could create a new generic set of artwork for unidentified consumables which would then change to the correct default game artwork after they had been tested/identified. The default item could still be a randomized version of the current artwork, simply duplicated with a question mark overlay added to it. No need to go out and create a ton of new art, or use a single generic one that makes all items look alike. Just duplicate everything thats there, and add a highly visible/obstructive question mark to it. Say you have a Fairywodger artwork mushroom with a big question mark on top of it. After eating it the artwork changes to the default Night Cap artwork and description. Considerations for #2: This might be mildly confusing to the player to have items so drastically change artwork, drink a green potion, and then all of the rest of the green potions in your inventory turn red. This could lead to one potion being red, and one potion being red with a question mark on it which you would for sure know was not the same potion, however the 'new' artwork would need to clearly indicate this so that you didnt click the wrong one by accident. Simply showing the identified description, and the unidentified description would probably be enough, but the artwork for the proper item should contrast strongly with the unidentified item. Okay, that it for now. Thanks to everyone who has read this far, and if any of the Dev team reads this, please comment on the viability of such an option. Id like to know on whether or not i should hold my breath, or if i should spend any more time refining the idea. There are obviously certain ideas out there which for technical reasons just arnt feasible (paper doll effects) in the current game. I would love to know where this one stands.
I sense a NetHack player here! Cheers to the idea, i lack the need of identifiying what i find in the dungeon.
No please, pretty sure the Dev's have far more important stuff to work on than this. Perhaps as a mod when the tools are released though?
About potions, I agree 100%. About bolts... uhh.. no. Not being able to tell a bolt of massive destruction from a cheap piece of plastic just doesn't make any logical sense. A three year old multihandicapped kid would be able to tell a sharp steel bolt from a poison bottle one.
This falls into the category of Random Shit That Kills You Through No Fault Of Your Own. I realize this is fairly common in Roguelikes, especially some of the more popular/brutal ones, but it's also something that you'll notice Gaslamp has decided to steer well clear of. Having an item in your inventory that, early in the game, you cannot identify, has the potential to kill you outright, and is the same color as last game's Healing Uber Potion? That's not challenging - it's RNG killing you. It's the same reason that nigh-undetectable, You Turn To Stone And Die traps weren't added to the game. That's not challenging - it's RNG killing you. Or those Level 10 caster mobs that cast Finger of Death from 15 tiles away and appear in groups of three every other room? That's not challenging - it's RNG killing you. If there's one thing that will frustrate and drive away a player, it's killing them on a whim, and not because they made a mistake. I know someone will jump in here and decry "Dying for no reason after 18 hours of gameplay because the game decided it should be so, and no amount of preperation, gear, or skill should be able to save you is part of Roguelikes!" I don't believe that, but if YOU can handle that sort of punishment without ragequitting the game, then more power to ya. I'm glad the devs have decided to keep the difficulty of this game squarely in the hands of the player. You will always die in this game because you bit off more than you could chew, or you didn't use all your "oh shit!" buttons/items when in dire straights, or you used a poor combat strategy, or you didn't pay attention and stepped on that acid bolt trap that was sparkling at you.
@Marak: A lot of the gameplay in games that involve unpredictable items is to experiment in ways that allow you to figure out what items do what without harming your character. Plus the idea is presented as a completely optional mode. People that would willingly choose this mode are far more likely to accept the gameplay and difficulty it presents. Also, the idea in the topic doesn't seem to even mention anything about adding insta-kill items or wanting to kill the player every chance possible anyway.
While I can see the appeal (sort of) of needing to ID stuff like Mushroom and Potions and Artifact-level equipment, I think it would be very hard to pull off without a text-based interface. It works swimmingly in a game like Nethack, not so much with a graphical interface. However, all it really does is create tedium and lead to more RNG/bad luck deaths: "Oh man, I used my only ID Scroll on this red Mushroom and it's a Poisonous Death Spore that will kill me if I eat it. Then some monster killed me and the game said that the Blue Mushroom that I couldn't identify was the Fairywodger I needed to survive that last hit!" Once again, we're back to "RNG killed you, not your lack of skill or preparation".
@Niymiae - Actually, i have played nethack and wasnt terribly fond of it. Im very fond of the concept, just not the execution. From the many lets plays that I watched of it, it often requires the use of a very specific tactic in every game such as wishing for a particular item, or inscribing words that you could not possibly know unless you were a supergeek, or dipping swords into fountains to make them into excalibur. All nice little touches, but the gameplay almost demands the use of them from what i have experienced and seen. A larger complaint about most roguelikes is the lack of combat feedback such as rising numbers above player/monster heads, and or combat sounds to indicate when you or an enemy take damage is a real turn off. I like to know the outcome of a battle as its going on, without having to view the history unless i simply didnt catch what happened. Plowing through battles because its too much trouble to look at the log is almost always what gets you killed in such a game. With regard to everyone elses comments about not increasing the randomness, this was simply a proposal to increase the longevity of the game. When a player grows bored of doing things the 'easy' way, they would have the option to step it up one more difficulty level. By no means should this be forced on other players after the general difficulty curve has been established by the game launch. One reason i suggested increasing the randomness is simply that DoD does not have very many negative effect items, so its very friendly to 'try new things' with. Outside of maybe nuking yourself with a bolt of mass destruction, i think theres 4 potions and 1 mushroom that can directly harm you. So the idea is that it encourages early experimentation, as opposed to potentially punishing it severely. In my original post i didnt introduce methods for identifying the items. But Brax could probably perform that service for a nominal fee, or perhaps simply by selling an item to him. The idea still needs some refining. EDIT: This idea was mainly proposed as only for consumable items, not for armor, weapons or artifacts. That would be getting closer to a true hardcore mode which i dont suspect most DoD players would want. I was trying to keep the idea simple and broad enough that it would appeal to a larger number of people (more chance of official inclusion at some point) be fairly easy to implement, as well as partly appeal to the hardcore crowd and maybe draw them over.
I would like it simply as an homage to older roguelikes. Make it a toggle-able option, like Permadeath or Random Skills. That satisfies everyone.
I do like the idea, even for bolts. But I think stuff you can craft and the ingredients for them should be identified on the spot. So you find a new recipe that needs, say, steel, grudge ear (don't know if that's the correct name, for the most part I ignore 'shrooms) and acidic salt to produce a "bolt of death and whatnot". You already have all the ingredients and one such bolt in your inventory. Since you found the recipe and it contains descriptions of all the stuff you need and craft, you immediately get your belongings identified. This way the crafting GUIs would not have to be changed and we may see this feature earlier? Generally I'm all for new "Random Shit That Kills You Through No Fault Of Your Own", especially if it's an optional feature, because I really enjoy dieing in horrible, unexpected and funny ways in this game . And I haven't even moved up to Dwarfish Moderation yet. Strange but true
Dying is fun! I'd enjoy a mode like this, but it may be best implemented as a mod, if possible. Still, it would be pretty epic.
I started on ADOM. Bring on the RNG! It'll make my eventual victory all the sweeter. Agree that this ought to be optional, of course. Why not have (for an un-id'd item), a normal wooden bolt/empty pot/average mushroom/etc. with a question mark on it with the usual suspects for names (bubbling/viscous/heavy/smokey potion for example) edit: To clarify, the harder the core, the more glorious the victory. The more work you put in, the more euphoria you get when you FINALLY finish it.
I really like this idea. It's great to die in ways you'd never expect. But as said before in this thread, I think it would work better as a mod then an actual game mechanic. And while we're at it, why not add some random bow-string snapping chance, when using a bow.
I could see a critical failure working better. Just skip a turn, or even injure yourself. I love critical failures. xD
For every critical action, there is an equal and opposite critical reaction That WOULD be preferable. Make a nightmare mode! Uber-respawn rates with HP boosts and an elevated experience rate. You gotta WORK for it!!!
