So, apparently, Lord Dredmor hits like a tank.

From what someone on Youtube told me, with 18 armor absorption, he does 24 crushing, 9 necromantic, 10 transmutative.
A. Please tell me why he needs to be made stronger.
B. Please tell me why no one has gotten the achievement for being killed by him.
C. How does it make any kind of sense for a Lich to be stronger than a Big Blue in melee. They are not known for being physically super-strong. Heck, without their spells, I could beat up any lich. Not my char, I mean me. The Real life me.
Well, maybe Vecna, the Emperor Lich, but he became a God, so, yeah.
If someone is fighting him in ranged, obviously he doesn't need to be made stronger. That wouldn't make sense, because he couldn't actually hurt the ranged attacker.
So, unless I'm missing something, and Dredmor is a small nuclear bomb, in disguise, like woman from Braid, , can someone tell me why he's too easy.

 

Mostly because he does nothing at range. Even as a melee you can just get yourself some bolts and throwing items and kill him like that. He rarely casts some spells, and they do damage (hit me for like 40 dmg and it was an aoe that remained on the ground, but only one time during the whole fight). Other than that he's just like a regular boss monster: Run away and throw stuff and you'll win. And I think the achievement for getting killed by Dredmor is buggy, my friend got killed by him and got the Thrusty achievement.

If you go to this thread and scroll down you'll see a video I made. I was hoping for some epic battle, but well...

http://www.gaslampgames.com/forum/discussion/594/lord-dredmor-thoughts

 

Right, well, the solution is obvious, make him dangerous at range, and nerf his damage at melee. At least, that's what makes sense to me.
But again, still surprising the game can basically not be beaten by a warrior without resorting to ranged attacks. Unless you can get a lot more resistances as a warrior by the time you fight him.

Thematically, it would make perfect sense to make him really, really, strong in ranged, but fairly weak in melee. Because, except for Vecna, the God of Secrets, or Hidden Knowledge, there's no Lich that's going to be able to hurt you by punching you. Unless it was a monk in life.

This would reward warriors, and at the same time, make it a challenge to get close to him in melee. Again, that's just me.
I wasn't aware Dredmor was only slightly less dangerous than The Stormbringer from Zangband.
"The Stormbringer hits you, you are heavily stunned, The Stormbringer hits you, you are knocked out! The Stormbringer hits x 20, you die."

For those who aren't aware, the Stormbringer is an unique that attacking in melee is a death sentence. Unless you have really high armor, or can do it's 1600 health worth of damage in one round.

 

@DaveB1111 Naah, you couldn't beat up a real lich. You would get paralyzed, or die to the cold aura, or any other little gimmick classic liches have from one iteration to the next!

But the real reason is that he is too easy is because he does not appear to have any kind of strategy to his offense. He could wipe the floor with you if he cast his Arctic repeatedly or even his Fireball repeatedly, but instead of often choses to use sub-par tactics.

Heck, if you want to reference classic liches then show me one that wasn't known for being incredibly smart... because Dredmor isn't.

 

@Incendax Apparently, I need to clear some stuff up, because I tend to ramble on, so that's probably my fault.
I said, "Heck, without their spells, I could beat up any lich. Not my char, I mean me. The Real life me."

Yeah, without their spells/tricks/etc, no lich is physically capable of fighting better than me.
And I'm fairly certain Liches don't have cold auras. They're not frost dragons....

Regardless, hand to hand, I would win, if no spells were involved.
And I can't fight all that good.
They're weaker than even Golden Age Superman, and well, a howitzer would kill him dead. Then again, he would also randomly beat people to death. Well, one time anyhow, and it was as Clark Kent, and I think he was having a bad day. So, he's like Lord Dredmor. Except much, much smarter.


Yeah, I'm a bit of a Superman nerd.
Anyhow, thank you as well for explaining it even better. I can understand how making him stronger would work in a way.
Let's just hope they realize he shouldn't be stronger in melee than a Boss class Big Blue/Big Red demon.
Because, at the moment, Stormbringer is only a little more dangerous. And he will knock you out on the second hit guaranteed.

 

I really don't think so, depending on what rules you go by liche are pretty nasty even without their spells.

In D&D 3.5, <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm">for instance</a>, "lich" is a template that can be applied to any monster that basically grants them some stat bonuses, some abilities, some resistances and some undeadness. That means that you'd have to be able to take the base monster first (which is no easy task, given how hard it is to become a lich in the first place), and then take the slightly improved lich version.

Of course, if you mean that you could take one assuming that magic just didn't exist, then well duh - anyone can beat up a corpse, though honestly that's kinda gross.

 

Ah, well, the only Liches I know of, except for Vecna, seriously, the only Lich to become a God, have the fighting capability of a dead body. Which is to say, not much.
They are also not all Steven Hawking level intelligence.
It's not really a matter of what race they are, even a Giant Lich is not going to be hard to beat up in Melee. Hell, A gorgon would probably be the only one to pose a challenge. "I feel stoned."

I'm sorry, but Liches pay a heavy price for Lichdom, being able to fight without spells, is the biggest price of all.
D&D maybe a good source of info, but I seriously don't see a Lich being a challenge in a hand to hand fight, because, uh, again, why do they cast spells, if they can stab you with a sword?

Then again, D&D also thinks Skeletons should be resistant to swords. Yeah, because you totally can't destroy bones with a sword. Oh, wait, no you can...Don't even need a vorpal sword, or a sword of slaying.

 

Come on, Liches can exist for thousands of years, they have plenty of time to pick up some martial art training or melee buffs spells, even if they only do it when they are REALLY bored.

Why don't Lich use a sword? Because they can punch you to death with bear knuckles.

Either that or Dredmor is secretly Skeletor, so he have plenty of brute to kick ass melee style.

 

Just give him some "Bone Lord" Guards and be done with it

 

I have been killed by Dredmor, with his arctic blast thingy, so I'm not sure why I don't have that achievement.

 

I know, let's make him summon a ton of monsters randomly and cast tons of spells. You'll need to get out of LoS and dig an anti-summoning spiral into the walls, and then stack at least +50 speed-

Er wait, we're not fighting Sauron?

 

So.. he doesn't need to be nerfed.

He needs some more ranged AI.

 

@DavidB1111 It really depends on the myth you want to reference, or in the case of role-playing which game system you want to reference. Check here for a list of well-known lich and lich-like beings: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fictional_liches

Liches can range anywhere from feeble wizards to full blown death knights. Sometimes they radiate cold, sometimes they are as strong as twenty men, sometimes they suck out your breath from afar, sometime their look can send you screaming in terror, and sometimes they can point at you and you die.

Also, this is just awesome: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html

 

I'd like to see him powerful to a point where in the beginning, he just toys with you with annoying spells. Especially when using melee specs, where he can easily escape from range with a teleport or a float, or pushbacks. Then when you finally give him trouble, he just flatout zerks on you and lames you to death with nukes.

 

I don't think a standard fight could ever be satisfying. Strategy would boil down to stacking buffs, spamming your strongest attack and hoping your numbers are bigger than his.

I like the idea of Lord Dredmor being invincible until you destroy his phylactery/horcrux. When you enter level 10 he should actively seek you out and open doors that are blocking him. You'd have to run away while trying to find his soul crystal/life cheese which may or may not be guarded by a monster zoo. Once you destroy it and Lord Dredmor is a mortal once again you can kill him like normal.

 

I think it would be fair to make Elvishly Easy Dedmor a pushover. Dwarven Moderation Dredmor the current threat level. Going Rogue should be absolute hell on earth.

I also highly support the Phylactery idea. The Phylactery is part of the majority of Lich based myths that exist.

 

I gotta say, he's disappointing in that you can abuse the game's AI to defeat him with ease. Use an Invis Potion/Ninja Vanish, run out of sight, buff up, get him just back in your sight range, pelt him with damage over time stuff (Clockwork Drill Bolts, Tentacular Wand, Acid/Poison Bottles/Bolts), and Invis again if he actually notices you. The upfront bolt damage combined with stacking DoTs will kill him sooner rather than later if you have a crossbow that deals any sort of decent damage. Having Rogue levels (for high Sneakiness) and a higher Sight radius (Radiant Aura/Potion) makes him even more trivial.

I killed him with a Bersking Vampire Dual-sword Weilder... by going Invisible, then staying at range and killing him with 2 wand blasts and 4 crossbow bolts. It was silly and disappointing and not the way I should be able to kill him with such a melee-centric character.

On the other hand, I had a similar character try to go toe-to-toe with him and got my arse handed to me (and found out the achievement is broken).

 

Well, finally, I can log in again and post. Stupid bug.
Okay, well, good to know about all the different liches.

While I have not yet fought Lord Dredmor, I'd prefer it if the game is not made silly difficult.
Yes, yes, I know, liches can put a decent fight. I'd just like this game a little easier than killing Morgoth in Angband. He makes Sauron look downright easy.
Mostly because Sauron can't hit you for massive earthquake damage.

This game is balanced as is, it just needs Lord Dredmor to not be so strong in melee, but strong at range. Also, he has 600 health, so how could 4 bolts and two wands kill him? You'd have to spend a lot of time waiting for the DoT to wind him down. At least, I think. I don't use Clockwork drill Crossbow bolts that much. Mostly Acid bottles and squid to kill a monster zoo. With a few other random ones for the stupid kleptoblobby and corrupting monsters.

Regardless, in this game, on Elvish Easy, I have a hard time getting anywhere past floor 7, sometimes I get stuck at floor 6, it's all up to the RNG, so I'd prefer it if the game could not be adjusted to the point to where I could never ever beat it. Thank you.

 

Well, first off, he has 200 health, not 600. So it wasn't that hard.

Remember that I hit him Tentacular Wand charges - twice - which is a 2-stack of a 3-stage spell, and each stage of each stack is dealing damage.

Then you tack on the DoT of 2 Clockwork Drill Bolts, and me re-vanishing to run away more, and... well... he died before I started my next series of attacks.

In any case, you're right. Meleeing a Lich should be something that is a good way to damage him, but you're at risk of taking massive spells (NOT melee attacks) to the face, while staying at range should be similar - you can plink away with Wands and bolts but he's going to pelt you right back.

Currently if you can out-sight or uber-Sneakiness far enough away from him, you can kill him and he'll barely even notice you, much less have a chance to cast any spells.

 

@Marak I agree with that.
Also, I swear I heard someone mention he had 600 health. Weird.
And if his health is 200, on all difficulties, then I guess he's immune to the health change for difficulties.