Finally defeated Lord Dredmor for the first time

So, yeah, I've cleared Dwarvish Moderation for the first time finally (permadeath on, of course). It took awhile, but it was darn fun, it was.

My skillset:

Axes
Archery
Shield Bearer
Artful Dodger
Necronomiconomics
Fungal Arts
Archaeology.

Ended up being a very entertaining build, and stronger than I thought it would be. Archery could have a bit more benefit to it though. Fungal Arts is just excellent, and Necro is very, very useful when done right. The constantly-low magic power level of my character meant that 2 or 3 Necro resistance was enough to nullify the damage effects of those spells. Mostly, Necro was to deal with singularly powerful foes like bosses and such. Fungal Arts was what this build was really focused on; it's a strange set, but it's just incredible once you get the hang of it.

Had most of the skills maxed out when I got to Dredmor.... I think I was at character level 23 or so? Dredmor.... put up more of a fight than I expected of him. He was actually dangerous. His AI didnt conk out on me and go into stupid mode like I'd thought it would (and like I"ve seen in a couple of videos). Kept reviving things, lighting me on fire randomly, and generally being a big pain in the ass and having silly amounts of health. That's all a good thing, though. I'd rather the game end with something resembling an awesome fight instead of him just entering the scene and keeling over.

My overall opinion of this game after a full playthrough is..... it's brilliant. I play alot of Roguelikes, but this has quickly become one of my all-time favorites. Even after some 60+ hours with it, and defeating Dredmor, it still makes me want to do more.... so many possible builds to mess with, and so much replayability in general... and there's still GR to conquer yet. I'll probably wait till the game patches though before jumping back into it, so that everything just works better.

Either way though, a big thanks to the guys at Gaslamp for producing something so amazing. I do alot of gaming, but it's rare that I find one I like as much as this one. Brilliant work.

 

Hmmm, yes. Now, off to planning your build for a GR PD. It's like 3x times harder.
Also, don't bother with melee character until 1.4. as they're broken and way too weak

 

And if they remove the store capacity from tools, what am I going to do with my craft-it-all builds in the long run??? :< I'll feel so ronery :<<<

 

After I won recently for the first (and so far, only) time on Dwarvish Moderation/permadeath), I decided to see if I could win with a melee character. I actually made it down to level 10 -- Sword/Smithing/Dual Wield/Dodge/Berserker/Burglary/Assassination. I actually fought through (slowly) a monster zoo there, only to die this past evening in the very next room that only had two arch-diggles in it (due to carelessness). I had explored at least 3/4 of level 10 without finding Lord Dredmore.

Winning without magic (pre-patch) is definitely difficult but judging from my experience, it shouldn't be impossible. Granted, I didn't quite make it this time, but I'm planning another try this weekend.

 

Should be interesting to see if Melee builds will work without the currently mandatory spell support in 1.0.4. I don't see how you can win the game as it currently is without abusing high-end Bolts, having a School of Magic in your build, abusing This Translation is all Wrong, or some combination of the three.

Right now a "pure" melee build only works until around Dungeon Level 7, and then you are forced to rely on Bolts and Thrown weapons more often than not to defeat things that your armor can't help you with (and to beat Dredmor). The only reason my Vampire Fencer beat the game was because I saved all my 10-star Bolts for Lord Dredmor and I was able to abuse Archaeology to get enough Mana Regen (and Magic Power) to keep all 3 Astrology buffs on me at all times - that is a LOT of stats you gain if you can manage that.

 

@Marak
My Melee build did not need any magic support, vampirism, or Archaeology. Yes, I did heavily use thrown weapons and bolts, and I endlessly swapped equipment as needed by the situation. That said, I still eventually got careless, and did not quite reach Dredmore (thought defeating the level 10 monster zoo was a pretty good proof of concept, imho). What it depended on mostly was stealth, Knightly Leap, and some good crafted (and late in the game, non-crafted) equipment. Running away is always a viable option to regain hp when you are not a vampire. Also, a Pan-Galactic Gargle Blaster is a melee fighter's best friend (who cares about the mana upkeep when you don't cast spells). When you have a high crit rate, a high-end crossbow, plus get damage bonuses from rings, etc., even a lowly plastic bolt does ok damage. You just have to be careful to always leave yourself an escape route, and Knightly Leap is a huge help with that.

 

You're just proving my point though - you didn't win as a knock-down, drag-out heavy melee warrior that could go toe-to-toe with anything (within reason). You won by moving about and shooting things with high-end bolts and a high-end crossbow that made even low-end bolts decent. Try to beat the game my meleeing everything you meet on Floors 8-10.... you can't. You simply cannot. You'll run out of food or get hit-counter-hit for 60+ damage by an Arch Diggle and die. Like I said, I'm hoping things are bit more reasonable for melee in 1.0.4 - I'd like to make a "generic" sword and board fighter-type with Shield skills and Smithing and not have it be a joke once I hit Floor 5.

 

@Marak

Are you speaking just of Going Rogue difficulty? Or do you mean others as well?

Playing on DM difficulty, I did, in fact, manage to take a pure (and I mean PURE) melee character to near the end of the game (as in, past floor 7 and it's terrors). And this is with the Warrior stat problem, mind you. The only reason THAT character died was because I did something terribly stupid due to being impatient. Having gone through with my Fungal character, and seeing exactly what the last 2 floors had to offer, in terms of dangers and such, I'm certain that my sword-guy would have won the game, if I hadnt been an idiot.


But even pure melee characters, when they work correctly, are GOING to have to run from some things. Arch Diggles? Dont ever expect THOSE to be a safe fight. I think they're basically where they SHOULD be. I understand what you mean by wanting to have a pure-melee character and all, but even a pure, sword wielding berserker maniac would be smart to actually USE the items that the game gives you, instead of ignore them.... that's why they're there, and the game's balance is, at least in part, built around the fact that such items exist. If the game gave you some powerful throwing weapons or whatever, USE them on the arch-diggles (or similarly irritating things, like the Big Blues). You can always go sword something else to death.

I kinda like that aspect of the game, really, where good item use can get you a long way.


Fortunately though, it sounds like melee will be MUCH better in 1.04. It looks like they fixed all of the major bugs that were on that.

 

Yeah, that's what I'm hoping for. And my point was really, if you devote all your skills to Melee, and put on the Heaviest Armors, and get a really good shield... you should be able to melee most anything to death. But you can't, in 1.0.4. You are going to have to resort to using the high-end Bolts to kill certain things - arch diggles, monster zoos, Dredmor, etc.

It'd be like if, as a caster, you were expected to melee certain monster types to death, and if you didn't - because you're "not using all the tools available to you" - then you're doing it wrong and should expect to fail. This is what Melee characters are like currently - do things other than melee, or fail. I disagree with that stance - a melee character should not, for instance, be forced to use Ninja Vanish and Bolts of Mass Destruction to kill Lord Dredmor.

Oh well, I suppose I'll just have to see how 1.0.4 plays out on Tuesday.

 

The game would be boring if you could literally go toe to toe with anything in the game with melee alone. I didn't take any ranged/magic skills. As Misery points out, It's silly to insist on a victory where you actually refuse to use tools that the game offers you simply because they aren't melee tools.

The game currently isn't balanced for melee builds, but that's not my point -- my only point is that melee builds ARE viable even if they are not (currently) optimal. Even a mage build is usually going to have to swing at a monster once in a while, regardless of whether the hand he swings with is empty or not. So it's a ridiculous point that you make.

 

Not sure how I can make this clearer.

Melee using crossbow bolts or stealth or magic spells once in a while, in the face of clearly melee-destroying foes, is okay, to a point. I can see that there should be some monsters - spellcasters maybe? - that you want to avoid going toe-to-toe with for balance reasons.

That being said, Melee not being able to beat the game without 100% COMPLETELY RELYING on the high-end, AoE Bolts (Squid, Mass Destruction, Clockwork Drill, etc.) to get them through the last 3 Floors of the Dungeon is NOT OKAY.

Would you like it if, as a Mage with 5 of your 7 skills invested in mage-y things, you had to kill most of the monsters on Floors 9 and 10, and Dredmor himself, with melee attacks or crossbow bolts instead of the spells you've been pumping up and gearing for the whole game?

Because that's exactly what melee has to do - abandon its primary focus and rely on Mage/Rogue skills to survive the hardest parts of the game. Your strengths become liabilities the further down you go - but the same is NOT true for ranged combat options OR the key spells of the various magic schools.

 

@Marak

Again, maybe GR is different, but I found that I did, in fact, NOT have to rely on bolts/whatever for the last three floors.

While floor 7 was a pain in the butt, 8 and 9 were.... honestly, really underwhelming (in my most recent playthrough that I mention above). I'd been expecting an even bigger challenge than 7. What I got.... was mostly things dying in my general direction.

THAT particular character had Necro as support (a very weak Necro, due to a pretty darn low magic stat), which was entirely to help deal with crazy strong things like bosses; but I simply barely ever used any of those skills on 8 and 9. The monsters on those floors seemed WEAKER, not stronger, than those on 7. And the ones on 7 werent THAT bad, so long as I took things slowly.

Heck, I didnt use *any* of the squid bolts (and I also had 20 acid bottle bolts at this point, most of which went unused) until floor 9, because I came upon a monster zoo RIGHT AWAY and was expecting the monsters in there to be terribly dangerous; afterwards, I realized.... I'd wasted a squid bolt, because the things there seriously werent that bad. I just threw the rest of them at Lord Dredmor, because when he shows up, you may as well go all out with everything you've got.

You dont have to COMPLETELY rely on nothing but crazy bolts and spells, melee or not.
Unless, again, you're playing on GR and it's different about that. I cannot say.


That being said, I also agree with Haldurson. If you can just swing your sword and kill anything easy, what's the point? I agree that you shouldnt have to rely ENTIRELY on things like bolts.... but at the same time, NOT using them when they're A: available, and B: capable of helping out is just silly.

It's just like with the mages right now (before 1.04). Pick the right mage setup, and it's like playing the game on easy mode. They just splatter everything. Throw spells, win. Throw more spells, win some more. .....boring. Even a mage character should be thinking "Hmm.... maybe I should carry these poison bomb things with me, they might really come in handy in a dangerous situation" instead of "Items? Who needs items? OBVIOUS FIREBALL IS OBVIOUS!!!!"

I dont want mages to be like that, and I dont want the warriors to be like that either.

One way or another though.... it really does look like 1.04 will make warriors, well, just plain more FUN, in addition to working correctly. I'd kinda like to try a berserker dual-wield build, myself. The idea of running around like a madman with 2 axes and chasing diggles around going "AAAAAAGH! BRAAAAAARRRRGGGGHHH!" is hilarious.

Someone should draw an image of that. It entertains me.

 

Yeah, I finally broke down and made a Promethian/Blood Mage character, and it's just silly. Monster Zoo? Inky Hoglantern/Ninja Vanish, back up 2 steps, spam Obvious Fireball until the counter reaches 0. Throw some AoE vials/bolts if the right-click spam is boring you too much. After it's over, you roll your eyes at how much easier that was than trying to do it with a melee character, which takes 6 times as long and requires that you use some smart positioning, food, fungi, and potions to clear.

I think my main issue is the high-end bolts not scaling. You can have 0 levels in Warrior or Rogue skills, equipped with a Small Crossbow, and STILL kill everything with Squid or Mass Destruction Bolts. Dredmor dies very quickly from Clockwork Drill Bolts, especially if you spam 2-3 into him from far away. This goes back to my point: you beat Dredmor with overpowered, non-scaling Bolts from as far away as you can, because if you try and do 200+ damage to him in melee, he pelts you with powerful spells (the Wind DoT and Obvious Fireballs) while hitting like an Arch Diggle, and you die.

If you save up 3-5 powerful Bolts and AoE Vials, you can kill him from 8 squares away and take 0 damage.

Maybe someone out there has found a build/gear set up that lets them melee Dredmor (and the monsters on Floor 10) reliably, and if so, I'd like to see it. All my melee characters turn into Archers on Floor 10, or they die. In fact, my first Vampire Fencer died to Dredmor himself after a barrage of Wind, Wind, Fireball, dodge-and-counter-attack for 40+ damage. I haven't touched him in melee since.

 

I certainly WAS meleeing critters on level 10 -- not reliably, in that sometimes I just had to run away and heal a bit. But I certainly could go one on one with almost anything, assuming I didn't get unlucky (a couple of badly timed misses and counters and crits can ruin your day). But that's part of the game as a melee person, and I don't think that ought to change. That's how it should be. I never had a chance to even try to melee Dredmore, and if I did, I would hope that my life would actually be in danger -- he should be dangerous as he's the goal of the entire game. Anything less would be anticlimactic. It's one thing to ask that melee builds be more viable, and quite another to ask that you should be able to melee anything. That's just a way of turning an otherwise fun and challenging game into a total let-down..

 

It's also a total let-down to sink 20 skill points and 10 pieces of gear into a play style, only to have it rendered 90% ineffective when it matters most. I just cleared all of floor 10 by spamming Obvious Fireball and Nerve Staple; I never had to abandon my Archetype to win. With Melee, you do.

 

I'm not claiming that melee is good as-is -- I do not dispute that melee kind of sucks in comparison to magic. But by your own argument, it is far better than the bow skill (atm), mostly because the bow skill is FAR from essential to being effective with a bow. But your argument has absolutely nothing directly to do with melee as a build and everything to do with how the Bow/ranged weapon builds are kind of useless as those skills really have little to do with the effectiveness of those kinds of weapons.

 

I find it very odd that having crossbow skills/a better crossbow makes all your weak bolts stronger but does very little to the (already too-good) most powerful bolts.

And I suppose you're right, it's not the hitting things over the head part of melee builds that is broken - it's a lot other factors, including: not gaining HP from Burliness in Skill Trees; not gaining enough HP/Warrior Level; Heavy Armor being ineffective against the damage types that the heavy hitting, non-caster monsters use; and the fact that you're forced to take a lot of damage (unlike other builds) and yet, non-food healing items are exceedingly rare unless you take Fungal Arts.

 

@Marak

Fortunately, that overpowered Mage stuff SHOULD be nerfed properly with today's patch (gah, cant wait for it, really). No more obviously spamming the Obvious Fireball if all goes well!

And I sure hope it does... I'd love to be able to play a mostly-mage character WITHOUT it being OP. I dislike anything that ruins the challenge of a game like this.

As for the bolts, I *think* the reason they work that way.... the best bolts being things like Squid, Acid Bottle, and the like, is that only the INITIAL damage from the impact is effected by your actual ranged stats; the rest of the damage is simply calculated straight from whatever "spell" the bolt then invokes. I THINK it's this way.... I could be wrong.

I agree that maybe some balance changes might be a good idea with certain bolts; I dont think they're overpowered like the Fireball, but just a BIT of tweaking might do them good overall.

Possibly, also up the price of the things. The Squid Bolts are WAY too cheap for the powerful effect that they have.

 

Squid bolts are full of tentacular rape. I love them so.

 

Admittedly I'm having more trouble with the Fireball Spam build in Going Rogue, but that's only because the game is skimping on Drink dispensers and I have yet to find ANY good Caster gear - so, it's only "hard" because I've had some bad luck. Still, love my Monster Zoos... Open door, summon Dragon to take hits, select Obvious Fireball, spam right click until the music stops. Once I get 2 decent Orb Shields and TTiaW myself a bit more mana regen, I think things will go back into cakewalk mode.

WTB 1.0.4 patch, pst.