First, I like to say that I don't like seeing skills Nerf, I only like Buffs. If a few skills seem exceptionally good (excluding bug abuse)? Then buff everything else to the same level. Yes, I am saying fireball, golden ratio, alchemy, etc (all the one that got the big axe) was actually fine, where the other skill needed a buff. "But the game will be too easy"!!! How do we resolve this? By making Going Rogue harder. Notice how the Going Rogue crowd is usually the group complaining the game is too easy, while the Elvish group complain this game is too hard? Don't make the game impossible for everyone, just make it hard for those who choose it. As of right now Elvish is too hard for most casual players, while hardcore/metagamers are breezing through Going Rogue. Some suggestions include 1. Character damage received scaler (80%, 100%, 120%) 2. Global monster spell % scaler (50%, 80%, 120%) And most importantly, more buffs to the underused skills!!! (Yes deadshot, perception, ley line, fleshsmithing, wand lore, axe mastery, throwing mastery, master of arm, shield bearer, etc, need MORE).
Really? ... Who's breezing through GR? Beating it is a huge achievement, especially without using magic builds. This will be majorly changed with 104 and there is a lot of stuff in 104 that will make the game a lot harder. As for Elvish being too hard. That's just pathetic. I don't understand "casual gamers". This is a rogue-like game. It's one of the hardcorest games around. If you can't handle Elvish + not perma death then you shouldn't playing be this. All that DoD needs considering difficulties is an even harder mode or an ability to give handicap to your or monsters. (or anything like that really)
Well I beaten the 1.04 beta GR with 3 different builds, if that means anything. Granted they are not permadeath cuz I am too casual to play carefully. But so far I only die from really stupid mistakes, mechanical errors (like clicking to move end up closing door behind me), and my 2+ speed habits. Besides, making elvish easier shouldn't take away anything from Roguelike fans. It just expands the fanbase and help pay the bills.
@DerpTyrant Don't sound like an JerkTyrant. I haven't played much beyond floor 7 in this game for many reasons, mostly monster difficulty ramp up, all on Elvish Easy without permadeath. Yes, this game is harder on Elvish Easy than you'd like to think. I've been playing roguelikes for a long damn time, I think I'm entitled to play this game how I see fit, and not be forced into only one category, "Casual gamers" by people like you. I lost some respect for you because of what you said. I do not like egotistical people. And at the moment, I'm hoping 1.04 is easier a bit. You should know, a game made harder for only the people who complain about it being too easy on Going Rogue only breaks the game balance completely, and makes it unplayable on easier difficulties. Yes, Going Rogue is supposed to be hard, but if you keep nerfing everything over and over, it just makes the game retarded hard, and unplayable by all but the very best. And by the very best, I mean, the makers of Nethack. Not the players, but the makers. And possibly the makers of Dungeon Crawl, and Dwarf Fortress, the only game more confusing than Quantum Physics.
Yeah. No, I get it. I was just a bit shocked, but I understand. Play how you like. That's why I suggested a handicap system. A way to alter the game by yourself and not pre-chosen difficulties.
Mechanically speaking, this game does have one of the smallest Elvish Easy -> Going Rogue gap. The "appear on level" cease to matter once you actually on level 7 onward, the extra monsters can usually be dealt with through funneling, so it's just the HP difference. Since 1.04 monster throws a lot more spells than 1.03, and yes they hurt a lot, the HP difference becomes even less important. With that, damage scaling based on difficulty become much more necessary than the previous, melee oriented monsters.
@123stw You'll never convince the devs to only buff things and not nerf them, lol. As someone that's into game development, and does alot of beta testing and such, I understand WHY devs often have to swing the dreaded Nerf Bat. I know alot of people hate seeing it done, but what's the real reason for that? It's usually because they believe it will make THEIR characters less powerful..... and that's it. Instead of learning to deal with the changes, they just go and complain a whole lot. Things get nerfed for a reason, and right now, some things VERY MUCH need nerfing (certain magic skills, for one). And in the end, it really is all up to the devs. THEY know best where the balance needs to be; trust in their ability to do this. As for the difficulty, I totally agree with DerpTyrant. This is a Roguelike. It is meant to be hard. And no, I'm not trying to sound egotistical or anything, DavidB1111, before you say anything, lol. And I"m not focusing on just you with this paragraph either, lol, this is generalized statements. But I really do tend to have very little (or no) sympathy for anyone saying a game like this is too hard. If it's too hard for someone? That someone needs to simply improve their skills..... that's all. Practice, and LEARN; if you've having trouble, ask questions, look up strategies, use the wiki, try new builds, but TRY, instead of complain. Alot of players these days just are not willing to do this, and this is why we end up with so many ridiculously easy (read: boring) games recently. And really, the game ISNT all that hard, and I say that from having beaten it on Dwarven Moderation; GR I havent jumped onto yet, been waiting for the 1.04 patch before I get going with that. DM though is a fine difficulty to start with and a good way to learn the game. Even on floor 7, I didnt think the game was THAT hard. The trick to floor 7 was simple.... "be careful". I did, in fact, clear the entire floor. With a primarily-melee character. And I'm *always* on permadeath, so no saving/reloading for me. And I'd done it once (cleared that floor) before with a *pure* melee character (as in, no magic whatsoever, sword stabbing all the way!). Not meaning to brag, just pointing out.... it can be done. You, too, can do it.... if you try. Where was I going with all this? Crap, I cant entirely remember. Anyway, I had a look at the patch notes just now, and it doesnt really look like the game is getting easier OR harder. Well, obviously it's getting harder if you were abusing one of the obviously overpowered/broken skills, like Obvious Fireball or Translation Is All Wrong. But beyond that.... some stuff got nerfed, but OTHER things now freaking WORK, and basically got "buffed", you could say. Take.... Burglary, for example. The +5 to Nimbleness wasnt working right, with that skillset; it basically was not even there (and this was happening in alot of skillsets). For a Rogue type character, Nimbleness is important.... so that skillset wasnt being as helpful as it should have been. Now, it WILL be. So that's good. And the Warriors arent all screwed with the HP and stats anymore. Basically, after this patch, character builds should work more as INTENDED, so.... now's the time, perhaps, to REALLY jump into the game, I say. All in all, I see no problems with the changelist. And I've got to stop making posts like these before I've had my caffiene, cause I keep getting lost and forgetting what I was going to say. Oh well. I made at least half of my point here. Lol.
@Misery Why call it easy mode if it's not easy? Why call it hard mode if it's not that much harder than easy? Why force the challenge you want on someone who pick easy and want a relax game?
Elvish is easy. I see a clear delineation between the difficulties, at least. I let my brother play while he was here on leave. He loves rogue-likes. He started on going rogue, and died to the first sickly diggle he encountered. He died with 0 points, and then said the game was awesome. ;D Anyhow, nerfing is sometimes necessary. Buffing everything makes little sense, and would probably just make the problem worse. Not to mention it would expand the job greatly, as mob difficulty would have to changed as well. Unless you want the game to be a breeze...
@Vykk Draygo Well the skills I listed is still on the lower end of the list even after the beta rebalanced. Also, a global Mob difficulty increase for any specific difficulty can be done with tweak.xml. Though it will be even easier if a global damage multiplier is implemented.
Guys, guys guys. We're supposed to get *good* mod support in a couple of patches or so. Don't fret! Make your hyper hard masochistic or flowerpicking picnic day mods, and everyone will be happy!
@123stw "Easy" mode is supposed to be easy IN COMPARISON to the other modes. THATS why it's called easy. I've seen plenty of games where "easy" is hard compared to OTHER games.... but it IS in fact easy compared to "normal" and "hard" in THAT game. And part of why I have no issues with forcing challenge on players is because there's SO few games that even come close to doing that these days. Most of those games, I find boring to the point of mind-numbing; when I find one that DOESNT just hold the player's hand and give out rewards for doing a whole lot of nothing, I definitely jump into the game in question. This is one of them. I mean, sure.... Part of the game's point is to try to draw more players into this genre, by giving them something a little more accessible. But that's not really going to WORK, if the game is stupidly easy. Because players might try that mode, think "Oh, that's pretty easy, lets try some other games!" and then get ABSOLUTELY WRECKED and wonder why. I've seen this sorta thing before in the shmup genre at times, and it usually ends in complaining and shouting. Putting SOME difficulty in, even in easy, forces the player to increase his/her skill level, and learn more, thus easing into the entire genre more. They'll have that much more of an edge when they then either choose DM or GR in THIS game, or just plain choose another game to start. As Psiweapon says though, mod support. It probably wouldnt be too hard for someone to come up with a "super easy" version of the game, if that's what they really wanted. For me though, difficulty and challenge is the entire POINT of roguelikes to begin with.
@Misery Elf and GR isn't going to be that much different anymore. I know it's hard to experience this in 1.03, where everything being melee makes the low HP on elf super easy. But ever since Beta enemy chain spells are easily the most dangerous things in the game. For a GR player this is great, but given damage is consistent throughout, elvish player will probably find themselves nuked to death. This is why I think some kind of damage scaling base on difficulty is needed.
@123stw Hmm, damage scaling of that sort is probably a good idea. It is a little odd that it isnt that way already. But I'll have to mess with both DM and GR myself after the patch to fully get a handle on it. But.... that's fine, for now. Dont forget, the game is still, well, kinda early on. The devs apparantly intend on new patches every 2 weeks, so.... there's still alot of patching to do. And I wouldnt in any way expect the game to be super balanced right after such an early patch like this. Balancing a game like this isnt easy, and I think the devs are still learning about the process and such. No, the point of THIS patch is almost entirely bug-fixes, but some of the bugs were such that they WERE imbalancing the game in their own right, so it'll at least add SOME balance. I'll be glad for Warriors and Mages working more like they should, and SKILLS working like they should (all them skills that add primary stats, now ACTUALLY DO SO. That's great.) I notice, for instance, that there's....almost no changes to the monsters in the patch notes? I didnt really see any in there, anyway. And some of them DO need changes. For example, the Big Blues on floor 7 are *way* stronger than the red version on floor.... 9, I think it is? That doesnt really make sense. Definitely wanna see changes of that sort, but for now.... it's mostly bug fixes. .....but they did at least nerf some OP spells like Obvious Fireball and whatever right away. That's good too.
@Misery Oh it was just not listed, but monsters gone through quite a bit of changes. If you have the old and new monDB.xml and run a comparison analysis, you can see about half the stats are changed in some ways.
@123stw Haha, I'm much too lazy to do that.... I'll take your word for it on that one Hopefully someone will update the wiki with all this stuff. Sounds like this next playthrough is gonna be pretty darn interesting, then.
@Misery I understand things now. I'm just a bit confused why more monsters cast spells. That's kind of nonsensical. Only certain monsters in this game should be able to cast spells. And that's the mage mask people, and the djinn and the octo thingy on level 3. And they shouldn't be as dangerous as Lord Dredmor's Artic blast. Unless I'm missing something. Haven't played the update yet though. Still hoping to someday get past floor 7 or 8. Games should be relaxing and fun, not hard as hell and frustrating. If someone doesn't understand that, they should be barred from telling people how to play their game. I'm looking at you, Misery. In the end, we should realize we are all not the same. And honestly, I get the vibe of "Everything was better in my universe!" from you. A.K.A. "I am right and you are wrong." I'll leave with a famous quote. "Why do you say these things to me, when you know I will kill you for it?" General Zod.
It sounds like you are saying the same thing that you are chastising Misery for. ;D As far as mobs casting, I thought of it as more of an innate ability. I haven't run into much of it yet, though. It might make things more interesting. I often thought it was too easy to set up a choke point, and just exterminate everything.
