Help break me out of my comfort zone!

I've just died, again. Dungeon level 10, best I've ever done (and I've been playing this game off and on for a year now, hah). So it's time for a new character, right?

Can someone sell me on a different type of build? I've never played a real Warrior type. I've never really played with Mage skills, at all. I'm a Rogue at heart, and it's soooo hard to pick anything else. My characters almost always wind up with mostly Rogue skills.

Burglary (I don't believe I've ever had a character without this), Perception (I try to skip this one, but I have Trap Phobia and so I always wind up going back to it), and then I pick a mix of Archaeology, Artful Dodger, Crossbow (used to be Deadshot!), Unarmed (alongside of or instead of Crossbow), Assassination, & Tinkering. Lately I've tried out Clockwork Knight or Rogue Scientist, and I've used Piracy a few times, and my big leap into 'something different' got me as far as Fungal Arts.

Yeah. For over a year now, I've been hitting 'Last Choice' and perhaps changing a skill around. Or I'll decide, 'No! This time, something NEW!' but I start with Burglary, tack on Perception, and then before I know it, I might has well have just hit Last Choice.

Is there any way to appease my Trap Phobia besides Burglary/Perception? Or can anyone recommend me something fun with a side of awesome (with perhaps hints on how to play it) that could shake me out of my Last Choice conundrum? Honestly, I'm not too smart & sharp on character builds, and there's so many that I've never played at all (or I might've tried, but died on the first floor and slunk back to my Last Choice) that I just can't visualize the synergies when I don't know how they work well together. I've tried reading the Share Your Builds thread, but a lot of it is still over my head because it just lists the skills and not why they're awesome, or it's assuming those reading it know the best way to put them together.

I don't. So, I come to you, hat in hand (and it's just a regular Fedora, because Krong is NEVER pleased with me past the first floor), seeking your vast wisdom. Share with me, please!

 

Tinkering offers quite a bit of trap affinity, but it's rogue archetype.

I tend towards warriors with a side of rogue support, so if you want a real sturdy, hard-hitting setup, try something like this:
Clockwork Knight, Blacksmithing, Tinkering, Perception, Dual Wield, (Vegan, Demonology, Berserker Rage, Battle Geology, Fleshsmithing, Psionics, Burglary.... just pick something that doesn't depend on magic power).

Clockwork Knight gives you mobility and offensive skills, as well as free tinkering plans. Blacksmithing keeps you in armor in the early game, gets you free fire resist and base pieces for the high-end tinkering recipes later, and some cheap throwing weapons. Tinkering gives you trap sight, access to plentiful high-damage bolts, endgame-capable clockwork gear... between these three skills you have melee defense and easy killing for caster-types mostly covered. Plus, CK gives you the scrap scavenging ability, so you can afford to just keep ingots and scrap, fisking extra tinkering bits to save on space (you'll need to fight for every scrap of space, but it's still better than Rogue Scientist).

You also have a lack of melee damage boosts and a penalty to EDR from the awkward clockwork suit you're wearing. Dual Wield covers the damage part AND boosts defensive ability by increasing counter chance. Perception adds more trap sight (so you can spot those corruption traps a mile off and fisk them with extreme prejudice) as well as EDR bonuses to counter the penalties from your armor.

From here on, it's sort of personal preference, but I recommend Fleshsmithing or Psionics for skill-points-cheap reliable healing. Tinkering increases savvy, so it even makes these spells cheaper for your modest mana pool. Killer Vegan gets you righteous damage, even more HP, an incentive to not hoard meat and cheese, and you can rocket punch or shoot diggles to avoid the fallen vegan debuffs. Demonology gets you celestial circle, so you can be even more invulnerable when you leap into the middle of a zoo and wipe the floor with them. Berserker rage helps with damage and defense when you get hit, and this build should have you getting hit a lot, for very little damage. Battle Geology adds some mage-style abilities, but also resistances (and block rating, and extra resistances when you block. And a short-term brittle buff with more resistances and block rating). Using Swashbuckling from Piracy while you have the Blaze of Glory buff from CK's capstone skill can get you 12 or more attacks PER ROUND when you're in the middle of a zoo.

I'll write up my rogue science build tomorrow maybe. This ran a bit long, but I tried to express some of the synergy logic while I was going through the list. Hope it was helpful.

 

Well why not combine rogue with either warrior or wizard?

Rogue-Wizard build
Promethean Magic
Necronomiconomics
Lay Lines
Fleshmsithing
Tinkering
Perception
Archaeology

Rogue-Warrior build
Swords
Dual Wield
Rogue Scientist
Perception
Archaeology
Tinkering
Warlockery/Demonologist(which is a rogue skill)


Edit: Well lets talk about rogue builds since you are asking.

They have finally become viable, since about a month or two ago. The reason being is that now dodge is rolled before counters. This means that if you roll a dodge you don't take damage period. The problem with rogues builds is that are pretty weak until they get about ~60. In my rogue build in "share a build" topic I pretty much max unarmed pretty quickly. It gave me the ability to damage enemies and take damage from the first 5 floors or so. Rogues really start to shine in once they are around level 15. This means that archaeology tends to be a must so you can rush to that level ASAP. Until then you are basically a glass cannon with cracks in it and no cannon balls. You are going to need a warrior/wizard skill that is 1) damaging in the first or second skill 2) be beneficial to you the whole game.

TL;DR

• Rogues are terrible until you got about half you skill
• You need to get as much experience ASAP usually in the form of "It belongs in a museum"
• You need a damaging skill tree that improve you survivability in the higher floors yet is still useful in the lower floors. For example: Warlockery, Viking magic, Necronomiconomics, Unarmed, Dual Wield
• Relay on being a warrior/wizard until your rogue skill take off.
• When you get in a tight spot, RELAX! take a break and view all your options before moving. You probably have more option then you first thought

 

I would say it's not the Roguey-ness of your build that's holding you back, it's the fact that you don't have form of Healing available to you (other than what you find laying about the dungeon). As painful as it might be, you really should try that build once more, but drop something like Perception or Crossbow skill for Alchemy or Fungal Arts, both of which offer mana-free healing items to craft for those "oh shit!" moments. Other options include Fleshsmithing, Emomancy, Psionics, and Blood Magic (Vital Siphon).

I don't think I've ever beaten Dredmor with a build that didn't include a Skill Tree with a healing ability. I'm sure it can be done, but you're (basically) playing with a huge luck-based handicap - relying on the unreliable amounts of Healing that the Dungeon will generate for you. Also, food is generally terrible for anything but post-combat recovery and "extra regen" during a Zoo or other large-scale fight - you need something more, something you don't feel like you have to hoard or get that you get that deadly "too good to use" feeling about.

 

The first time I won GRPD was with Burglary, Archaeology, Promethean, Blood Magic, Golemancy, Meteorology, and Magikarp. I got all the way up to 10 with standard quest reward equipments, which was the highest traps got at the time. Without the quest rewards, I think my was like, 5 or 6.



Burglary, Archaeology are obvious. Golemancy was there for digging (turns out Magikarp did that as well so I didn't actually need it, but the thaumites and walls were nice). Promethean and Blood Magic is a traditional combo: Promethean for high fire damage and zoo nuking, and Blood Magic to regain your mana from said nuke spells fast enough that the entire zoo's dead without you even needing to drink booze beforehand. Magikarp was in there partly so I didn't die on floor 1 in five seconds (it's a warrior skill, so I got a minor stat boost from that) and partly to test it out for the guy making the skill in an actual game (its capstone was horribly UP). Meteorology was partly to test that as well (Meteor Shower was UP, Acid Rain was horribly game-breaking), and was there for late-game power.

Theoretically this is primarily a mage build, but in practice I actually ended up putting like ten levels in rogue skills before I leveled anything else beyond rank 1.

 

My first time beating dredmor was with: Archeology, Clockwork Knight, Unarmed, Master of Arms, Berserker Rage, Smithing and Tinkering; Basically, send everything to the museum, put some points first on the crafting skills, and then in Berserker/Unarmed; leave archeology for last; and at the end, re-krong every anvil on the past floors. Go for heavy armour and block chance, when possible, take a Filigreed Silver Shield and a Mirror shield, for a good reflect/armour level
With this build, you'll end up using crossbows and thrown weapons a lot, too!

 

I second the rogue/mage idea. Just fit psionics/leywalking or bloodmagic into your next build and beat on things in melee. With psionics you can just push traps across the map.

 

I have an idea of a heavy counterattack warrior/rogue build, but I did not test it yet. It would be kind of weak very early, but with some levels you should be able to make the enemies hit themselves more than you
The build would be:
Swords
Dualwield
Tinkering
Clockwork Knight
Burglary
Archaeology
Avenging Executioner (FaxPax skill. Vanilla skill could be Piracy, if you don't want a modded game)

Apart from counter-attacks, this build runs on hitting multiple times and proccing the hell out of your enemies.
The sword skilltree gives +20 to crit, with a 20% chance on being hit to proc +16 counter for 2 turns.
Counter attack gives +15, an on-hit effect that lasts 5 turns and procs 100% that gives you +2 (+10 with 5 buffs), and 12% chance on being hit for a brittle=2 buff that adds +3 counter and stacks 2 times.
Also, every attack you do (counterattacks, too) has a 5% chance of proccing another one, which also has the ability to proc one, and so on. Clockwork knights capstone (I think) and certain items higher this chance.
Your caddishness and nimbleness stats (Rougestats, and you have got 3 rougeskills) gives counterattack, too.
Last but not (by far) not least, avenging executioner gives you on-crit procs and on-hit procs that decimate everything. You should hit enough for them to proc
So, all in all, you have got:
+35 critchance from swords and dualwield
+10 critchance from dualwield after you attack 5 times for 5 turns
+16 on a 20% proc when you hit for 2 turns (Mind, you can hit many times per turn)
+3 chance, stacking twice, for 2 hits on you, 12% chance.
EDR from swords
Chance to hit multiple times
2 teleports from Clockwork Knights, one with high damage and buffs
On-Hits and On-Crits from Avenging Executioner
+10 Crit from Avenging Executioner
+Crit and Counter-Attack bonuses from caddishness and nimbleness

Mind, I did not play it yet, but I'm planning on playing it after the char I play now.

 

I still think melee has it rough on this game, but I'll back up Frelus here, swords and dualwielding, along with a set of skills that boost either melee power or counter attacks (piracy for example) is in my humble opinion one of the more viable routes to go for a melee build. Can be a bit rough at the start until basic equipment is covered but then, and once the counter rating gets higher, it gets a lot more manageable.

 

Thanks everyone, I really appreciate the advice! All of it- from the builds, to how to use certain skills, and how they work together.
The in-depth discussions really help me out, as I'm terrible at theorycrafting, and quite often I just don't see how things can work together before-hand.

It's not so much that I felt my Rogue-centric focus was bad (the character that just died felt unstoppable- until she suddenly died in 2 hits to something spawned out of a Chest of Evil), it's just that I realized I've been making more or less the exact same build every single time. So many skills I've never used at all, but I was so stuck on what I was 'used to' that I didn't know how to work the never-used skills in, or completely go in the opposite direction and do a pure wizard build. I've tried so many times to use skills I know absolutely NOTHING about (since I've never chosen them), but then I get to character creation and before I know it, I've picked the same skills. Again. The comfort zone is too alluring.

I've had this game too long now to have not tried some of these skills. I think going hybrid rogue/something will help pull me out, because then it's not all totally new, I've still got something I'm used to, but I'll also have new skills to learn and see how they work together.

Much appreciated, thank you all!

 

I just beat GRPD with:

• Swords
• Dual Wield
• Perception
• Smithing
• Battle Geology
• Archaeology
• Rogue Scientist

It was not a easy game but lucky I got very lucky with items.
I used battle geology to my the first 2 floors a cake walk. In the time got the first 3 skills of perception, it belongs in a museum and then some smithing and sword. Then I spent the game raising my as much as I could. Once I could survive in combat then I start filling in rogue scientist and battle geology.


Dreadmor was actually quite easily with this build. I had about 20 invisibility potions, 14 inky mushrooms, 25 purity potions, and 110 healing potions. I drank a invisibility potion to get close and personal to Dreadmor. Hit him with petrification and wailed on him for 14 turns. I didn't do that much damage but it got my combat momentum maxed and debuff the hell of dreadmor (I was praying to the diggle god of digging). Then I just kept hitting him until my got to 120 hp or below in which I would pop an invisibility potion and then drink healing potions until fully healed. I only had to use about 5 invisibility potions and 10-15 healing potions and then dreadmor died.

 

I'll give you two builds I really like that have all the rogueishness you need. I've beaten the game with all of them. I'll warn you though, the first build makes the game very easy once you get going and the second build even makes the early game easy.

1) staves, dual wield, shield bearer, psionics, blood magic, burglary, archeology.

You can spend a couple points in the rogue skills to get some early trapsight/mastery. Dual wielding staves gives you a ton of magic power and blocking. Shield bearer helps you reach the 100% block cap. Once you reach end game, you can just nerve staple + massive dual wield melee hits for risk free damage. Nerve staple gives you 2 free hits. Pyrokenesis is a bit slow to kill things, but you'll have enough magic power to use it. Try wearing arch mage robes and whatever armor you can that adds and without hurting your . The second ability in blood magic is a great way to keep mana up in melee. The only down side to this build is you have no skill to make zoos less tedious. This is probably the easiest build in the game. Key abilities are nerve staple + melee with max and a high powered pyrokenesis for ranged plinking (if you get it up to 45 damage that's about what you do with a crossbow build).

2) staves, shield bearer, fleshcrafting (or necro), blood magic, burglary, archeology, geologist.

A similar build as above but you skip dual wielding for 1 hand + sheild and then later 1 hand + tome as you reach end game and max out block (if you take necro you might want staff + orb of nothing and focus on casting). Again, you want to gear towards 100. Geology and flesh crafting actually makes the early game easier than the above build. Siesmic Smash being the key geology ability and fleshcrafting has the heal and later miasma for zoos. Necro is a higher risk higher reward version of fleshcrafting. The healing is deeper down in the tree and rift caries a lot more risk. I always end up killing myself with it tbh.

 

A good way to transition from rogue skills to other skills, IMO, is to play several rounds with a rogue/wizard build. IMO the three best skills to take as your magic support for your rogueness are Mathemagics, Psionics and Emomancy (in no particular order).

Math will give you teleports, boosting your survivability, and DOTs that mesh well with various invisibility powers. Psionics gives a huge rage of utility spells that can replace rogues skills like fungal arts or tinkering. It can even clear traps for you with the TK Shove, once you find them. Emomancy is another great support skill armed with fast healing and the ability to make monsters ignore your roguely antics. The AoE doesn't hurt either. All three trees will benefit immensely from the double Savvy that comes from both Rogue and Wizard skills, but I would highly recommend playing with only one at a time, and a (or even two) wizard support skills like Ley Walker, Magic Training or Alchemy to back them up.

Flesh out your build with survival oriented Rogue skills like Perception and/or Piracy and utility Warrior skills like Master of Arms and/or Big Game Hunter. Once you get the hang of that you'll be ready for pure mages, then gishes and finally purebred warriors. Just remember to take your time, and there's no need to switch play styles until your well and fully sick of them. Hope that helps!

 

Just hit the random button and don't look at your skills until after you've begun your game. If you look you'll want to tweak them or hit the random button again and again, which defeats the purpose.

This will result in your swift death nine times out of ten, but it's a lot of fun and great for breaking away from the norm. I've had some very fun and interesting games by doing this.

 

Methinks there were a LOT of "fun" games from that. Haha. Fun.

But yeah, playing with random skills (or with archetypes you're unfamiliar with) will break your comfort zone and eat the crumbs.

 

If I may humbly suggest my unofficial strategy guide?

http://community.gaslampgames.com/threads/mr_stranges-unofficial-strategy-guide.1185/

I rather like it, and it's got about 30 builds listed with skill orders, synergies, etc.

 

I like to thoroughly vet a skill. And by that play with it a lot. I had like 3-4 builds with golemancy.... and it was great. learned a ton. Each build was different except for that and so it complemented eachother well. Then I did flesh smithing. I am still on this one but am now rotating it so that it isn't so central to my build and am instead doing my 3rd build with rogue scientist along with differences (one wand centric, another tinkering, and this time alchemy). Maybe it doesn't need to be said, but this is actually a blast for me.

And while People recommend builds, I recommend vetting skills. Really give stuff a go. My latest rogue scientist build with alchemy also has Vegan. I pulled the skill set randomly (hitting random until a decent Rogue scientist build came up). It had always looked dumb to me, avoiding meleeing animals or get a huge penalty. But i was surprised that after I got used to it, it was quite fun and very powerful to play.

If nothing else go random, just make sure the skills somewhat synergize and don't worry so much about builds, just put points where you think they will compliment your items. Sometimes i will take upward of 10 minutes considering my next skill point when I really love my whole skillset selection!

 

Try This rogue-mage build

Promethean magic
Emomancy
Burglary
Perception
magic training
blood magic
archeology

Use dragon's breath to weaken enemies before killing them on floor 1 until you can get summon wrymling. Get It belongs in a museum then max magic training then get obvious fireball and gog's pyre . You can leave blood magic at level 1 and try to put some levels into perception early on to get decent equipment. Get my chemical explosion before getting to floor 7 to deal with enemies with fire resistance.

Skill usage:
For tough enemies use lockdown + gog's pyre + sigil of whatever

use move in mysterious ways to get away from monster farm doors then place sigils of whatever to greatly weaken enemies.

In tough spots you can summon a wyrmling on top of you to act as armor.





*Using this build i accidentally killed lord dredmor on dwarvish moderation*

 

...Accidentally?

 

Yeah. Dredmor is so very weak and frail. You have to pity him a little as you smash his face in with an-overKronged weapon of dungeon-wreckage.