New Traps

Hello guys, I just created an account right now because I smolder with tremendous rage thanks to those traps. You know, the ones who keep popping up if you step on it, Dragonbreath Cauldron or something.
So I was in level 15, cruising around when I reached one of them, placed just in front of a Monster Zoo. They ALL stepped on it and quickly, it got out of control. Before I knew it, the whole room was covered in those traps. And while it was nice to earn 20000xp without doing anything, I just couldn't pass the room, completely littered with traps (And those traps kept stacking, aaaaaaargh), room that was necessary to go through if i wanted to reach Dredmor.
So I carefully disarmed those traps, it was very redundant but I did it. Except for one that was hidden behind a machine. Since I didn't see anything because the red outlines don't appear behind machines, I step on it, lost 200 hp straight away and died miserably.
Captech VI is not even on the wall of fame because I switched off my computer before the high score was showed, but not before the savegame was deleted. If only I died at the hands of Dredmor, it would have been fine but no, not that way.
I know it's my fault but those traps are an awful mechanic. Please hang the man behind them.

And by the way, I was playing on Going Rogue and it's been a pain to reach that level. Besides, to add insult to inj... death, I mostly completed the level and only needed to open 3/4 rooms max before to find Dredmor.
Now, I'll do a quick character, play on NTTG, without the DLC, just to get the achievement fast and forget this horrible experience and the 30 hours I wasted for such a result.

 

FaxCelestis is at fault - he created these monster trap wiht a very high chance of self-spawning.
It's all his fault.

 

It's not a 'very high' chance at all. It's 20%.

I could see an argument made for reducing it to 10% or 7.5%, as that would mean that using one would have a net negative return rather than a hovering-between-even-and-positive return.

Code:

<spell name="Dragonsbreath Caltrop Eruption" type="template" templateID="11" >
    <effect type="spawnitemfromlist">
        <option name="Quantum Caltrops"/>
        <option name="Quantum Caltrops"/>
        <option name="Dragonsbreath Caltrops"/>
        <option name="Dragonsbreath Caltrops"/>
        <option name="Dragonsbreath Caltrop Eruptor"/>
        </effect>
    <effect type="trigger" spell="Dragonsbreath Caltrop Hit" />
    <anim sprite="sprites/sfx/smokepuffbig/smokepuffbig" frames="6" framerate="100" sfx="bampf" />
    </spell>

This is the current spell.

Code:

<spell name="Dragonsbreath Caltrop Eruption" type="template" templateID="11" >
    <effect type="spawnitemfromlist">
        <option name="Quantum Caltrops"/>
        <option name="Quantum Caltrops"/>
        <option name="Quantum Caltrops"/>
        <option name="Dragonsbreath Caltrops"/>
        <option name="Dragonsbreath Caltrops"/>
        <option name="Dragonsbreath Caltrops"/>
        <option name="Dragonsbreath Caltrops"/>
        <option name="Dragonsbreath Caltrops"/>
      <option name="Dragonsbreath Caltrop Eruptor"/>
        </effect>
    <effect type="trigger" spell="Dragonsbreath Caltrop Hit" />
    <anim sprite="sprites/sfx/smokepuffbig/smokepuffbig" frames="6" framerate="100" sfx="bampf" />
    </spell>

This one reduces it to 10%.

Code:

<spell name="Dragonsbreath Caltrop Eruption" type="template" templateID="11" >
    <effect type="spawnitemfromlist">
        <option name="Quantum Caltrops"/>
        <option name="Quantum Caltrops"/>
        <option name="Quantum Caltrops"/>
        <option name="Quantum Caltrops"/>
        <option name="Quantum Caltrops"/>
        <option name="Dragonsbreath Caltrops"/>
        <option name="Dragonsbreath Caltrops"/>
        <option name="Dragonsbreath Caltrops"/>
        <option name="Dragonsbreath Caltrops"/>
        <option name="Dragonsbreath Caltrops"/>
        <option name="Dragonsbreath Caltrops"/>
        <option name="Dragonsbreath Caltrops"/>
        <option name="Dragonsbreath Caltrop Eruptor"/>
        </effect>
    <effect type="trigger" spell="Dragonsbreath Caltrop Hit" />
    <anim sprite="sprites/sfx/smokepuffbig/smokepuffbig" frames="6" framerate="100" sfx="bampf" />
    </spell>

This one reduces it to ~7.7%.

 

Well, it felt like a very high chance. Sure, it was low enough to permit me to disarm them on a regular basis but if even one monster pops one, it's all over. And I mean it. It was especially bad since it was a monster zoo but even 3/4 monsters can wreck the situation.
To be denied my total badassery after all I went through and the clockwork pieces of work I crafted, used, stacked and kept fondly felt wrong and amoral.
For now, my quick character is created, with absolutely no crafting skill to slow me down, only mushrooms to keep him going. At least, I'll get new achievements but it doesn't ease the pain, unlike alcohol.

Edit: It also works fine as a way to game the system. Before I died, thanks to one trap only, I won something like 4000xp because it kept spawning and my disarming skills were too low. With a Tinkering skill maxed, a Clockwork Orb and a book that permitted me to enhance them.

 

Two things: first, I think that you're right, the chance probably is a little high. But to blame the trap for your error is a little overboard.

And second, "wrong", "amoral", "hang the man responsible"...these are generally things reserved for hate crimes, not a trap in a video game that only appears in the final, difficult floors of the dungeon, an area where most traps aren't really all that dangerous because you generally can disarm pretty much anything at that point.

 

Also amoral is the wrong term for what you tried to convey. It refers to something that has no inherent morality. Science is amoral, the sun is amoral, etc.

The word you're looking for is immoral.

 

I think Penny Arcade made a joke about it. Those traps are now appalling.
I do not think this of course, do not take these words too seriously, hence the jokes about alcohol and stuff. I know the situation I met was one of a kind. It's just a way to deal with this terrible outcome. If it offended you, well, sorry about it but I'm sure you realize I do not really want to hang you for that.

Also, "aren't really that dangerous", aren't really that dangerous? Before that, I lost 100 hp in a row because I kept popping traps that were surrounding me. I've no word to explain how lethal they are. My only mistake was to step on the wrong tile, hidden by a vending machine, with traps themselves hidden by a teleporter (Meaning that if I stepped on a teleporter at the other side of the map and arrived there, I would died straight away). It shouldn't be supposed to make you lose 200hp at once. It was so cheap to die this way, even Dredmor can't one-hit kill you. That's why I love DoD actually. Unlike game like Crawl, you always have a way to escape doom.

If I can give a piece of advice, those traps just shouldn't stack.

Can't think straightly, must drink more booze. I'll come back later when the game will acknowledge me as a total badass (and a slave of Yog Soggoth).

 

I actually find the traps highly amusing to stand on so you can gain extra XP from all the little traps. This only applies if you're tanky.

 

The OTHER traps aren't dangerous. Sorry, I don't think I was clear enough in that. Dragonsbreath Caltrop Eruptors should be something you run away from very fast, not something you carry around in your pocket (unless you have crazy conflag resist).

 

If you have that conflag resist, though, dropping them in a zoo is really funny.

Which actually might be another reason tone down their spawning rate. I'm not sure one trap should have better than even odds of wiping out all the aggressive monsters in a zoo... I could see one of these babys doing that.

 

I can see myself building a character to get insane and checking shops for the traps. Hell, I may just dive quick and snag some to toss around in the higher floors. But the spawn rate should be neutral. I am unsure if this is higher or lower than current since I have yet to see one of the traps in this play through. (Others have already said thier side, and I trust they are right, but I reserve judgment.)

Thanks for the new traps, but....

Faaaaaaaxxx!!!

 

woo... finally a reason to worry about the traps again. Sounds like fun to me

 

Trust me its not fun at all. 9 potential tiles, a 20% chance means self-replicating with factor 1.8 aka ~2
Means each caltrop spawns 2 additional caltrops which can get out of controll beacsue on the floor their spawn monster take several hits of these babies to die. This way they can spawn a lot more. I saw 1 Trap killing of a whole dlev14 monster zoo, after it was over the whole zoo was literally stacked to death with traps on every tile up to 20 traps per tile.

This also made the room un-navigatable.

 

Rule. Of. Cool.

 

...Should not preside over playablity.

I think the best solution, but not the easiest to program, would be to put some sort of upper-limt on the number of times this trap can replicate. Perhaps making each replication in sequence weaker versions of the same trap?

 

Another solution: limit the number of traps that can be on one space at a time. Or that can go off on one space at a time. This would have a nice side effect of preventing kleptoblobbies from stealing your 40-stack of blade traps, dying, and then having them all go to waste when a monster walks on them.

 

Actually its 20% chance (per tile) to cause dragonbreath eruptor to spawn another dragonbreath eruptor, the area is otherwise covered with the other caltrops (from what I can tell from the spell code).
For the traps to end up covering the room meant they wont be doing that much damage, otherwise the monsters would be dying from them allot quicker and spawning less eruptors.

The point is though, it's a roguelike, its meant to be deadly (and quite frankly after about level 5 or 6 traps arent particularly dangerous anymore). Finding new and horrible ways for your character to die (unintentionally) is part of the fun, if your not keen on that factor prehaps playing on Dwarven Moderation or Elvishly Easy is a better option for you.

A possibility is to have the dragonbreath eruptors only able to triggger the once (assuming they dont currently), as that would reduce the net gain on them to about 0.8.

Edited for clarification

 

Wrong. The way template spells work is that each tile in the template has a chance to trigger the effect, hence, it's 20% PER TILE to get one. Exponential growth without limit, as was mentioned earlier in the thread.

Completely and utterly disagree with the roguelike reason. Firstly, DoD is supposed to be an entry-level roguelike, and exponentially growing traps does not fit into this. If the number of recursions were limited like you suggested, then fine. Otherwise, no.

Secondly, playing EE or DM does not help offset the artificial difficulty these traps pose. Trap damage is not modified by difficulty level (as far as I know), and even if they did 5 damage apiece, the mere fact that they're level 16 means you will die from chip damage just trying to get through a room filled with these things. On the note of difficulty, Lorrelian did point out that a single one of these could easily wipe out a zoo. Not that constructive to difficulty.

Finally, it can punish you for no reason at all. Remember that monsters can set off traps too - the blink curse trap bug was one of the most annoying, because the player got punished for something that was not their fault. A monster steps on this trap? A whole zoo is taken out, a room becomes unnavigable, and you get screwed over even if you didn't go anywhere close to the trap. Even in the hardest roguelikes, you HAVE to climb down those stairs, drink that potion or eat that bad food before dying stupidly and horribly. Your actions cause your death, that's the number one rule; if the player feels like the death wasn't their fault and there was nothing that they could have reasonably done about it, then they don't learn anything, because there's nothing to learn. They get mad, which is what we're seeing now. Dragonbreath Eruptors in their current state present a catch-22: try to disarm the trap and get screwed over personally, or leave it alone and wait for monster respawns to very possibly push it into some sort of growing dungeon creep that'll eventually engulf a whole level.

I'm not going for a personal attack on Fax or anything; I can see the need for deadly traps on lower levels, and yes, with enough resist most of them can be harmless (hence my own polymorphing, mad milk traps, etc, etc). Dragonbreath Eruptors would have been good and dangerous if the number of recursions had been limited, and I think even Fax has agreed with that, given what he's doing with his wildfire throwables now. Unfortunately, it's out of his hands now, since things have gone over to GLG's side, and I'm sure they'll change it with the update. In the meantime, you can mod it yourself by going to the spellDB in the expansion2 folder and simply delete that option from the spawnitemfromlist spell the eruptor uses.

 

Lessons of the day:
-Traps should be treated like a serious threat, just as much as monsters.
-An ability to deal with traps, either by avoidance or removal, is necessary to survive.

 

I can't talk about for the others but I don't see any problem with that actually. The quick character I did and talked about when I created this thread reached level 10 (Quite easily may I add for a Going Rogue run. It seems warrior builds are a bit too good) and died at the hands of Dredmor because I didn't expect him to Haywire my ass even when invisible. That was fair because I didn't pay attention to my HP, thinking Invisibility couldn't be bypassed so I didn't complain. Especially since it wasn't a one-hit kill.
Iccorp stated my point of view better than I could have and without the righteous rage so I don't have much more to say. I don't care if I die. I just don't want to die in a cheap way because stacked traps were hidden behind a vending machine, without any outline to show them through. All despite my seriousness.

Guess I'll redo a Clockwork Knight run since it was so powerful. Not now, after 75 hours in 3 weeks, I played enough DoD. The ability to stun with at least 2 abilities came in handy quite often. And Clockwork Ravagers going on auto-mode with the Clockwork Threshing ability too, while having the Axe and Dual Wielding skills.
...
Damn, I miss Captech VI. He was a good man.