Tell me why YOU don't use Archery or Throwing

As title -- I'm looking for the reasons why these skills are considered lackluster. Go!

 

Well, the activated skills aren't really that interesting, so if I am to take one of these I might as well just take a support skill or a crafting skill. They aren't bad per se (I do use them when I get them on random builds), but they are... uninteresting.

 

I love the monster throw

 

Usually it's because I started the run on my notebook where southward visibility is limited to 3 tiles, so I focus on melee skills...

It's been a while since i last tried it, but Monster Throw would be nicer if it threw further. Or added damage for throwing one monster into another or a solid object. (Hey, we can dream...)

 

Very few procs and activated abilities. The ones that are there are kinda meh. The paralyzing shot I suggested in the Deadshot skill tree might help. So might a stance or two - possibly exchanging significant dodge and block bonuses for increased critical chance or added damage (for crossbows) or a knockback chance or a kind of AoE impact crater (for thrown). Just some thoughts to kick stuff off. On the whole, I'd like to see things I can actually do, as opposed to just passive ammo recovery and damage bonuses (although those are nice.)

 

Thrown Weapons is quite fantastic. Beaned! and Australian Technique both make softballs into deadly destroying spheres of death and despair. Archery, on the other hand, does little to make arrows better than they are already. Maverick and Crossbow Blast are nice but it could use some extra oomph (stances?! i am in fact crying today because apparently crossbowShotEffectBuff does not work from <buff> tags and I'll have to use the silly trigger workaround I will hereby refer to as the "dubstep trigger mechanism").

 

Personally I don't think that these are bad or uninteresting skills. They are, however, arguably both the same skill, (or nearly so).

 

Explained what I don't like about Archery here. It gives little in the way of stat boosts and abilities, activated or random. Its main draw, the ammo recovery, is better done just by taking tinkering and making more ammo, and if you do that, you'll have all the ammo you could ever want, with no need for recovery of any kind. It would help a lot if Crossbow Blast started scaling, and Fleshborn was changed to something which scaled to a stat archers are likely to have, rather than magic power. Possibly Enemy Dodge Reduction, since Archery gives +16 in that, and it helps synergise with Perception, which should flavorfully have a very large effect on the power of your archery shots. Haven't used Thrown Weapons enough to complain about it, but what I said about archery and Fleshborn applies doubly to it. An ability which scaled off of Burliness like Beaned would be a lot better.

 

Thrown weapons is a lot better because you don't need direct line of sight to use many of the weapons, and most of the ones where you do require relatively significant resources to craft even if you do have the appropriate skill.

 

Would it be possible to tie the number of arrows (or anything) crafted to a different stat than crafting level? This would open up possibilities for many things, including possibly solving the issue of Archery being inferior to Tinkering.

 

I do use archery sometimes, for the crossbow blast and increased ammo recovery, I don't bother with throwing (I don't bother with MANY other skills, such as werediggle and emomancy) because usually I prefer to have other skills and rely on heavier thrown weapons (such as Alchemy and its brimstone flasks)

 

To be fair, this is a bug. Also, the hit effects of the items themselves do behave like regular missiles, even if the damage always hits.

 

My problem with archery and throwing is they are only really helpful at the start of the game. They just aren't very helpful after about floor 4. Here are my ideas to make them useful:

• The ammo recover rate should be around 95% at capstone
• Possibly make unrecoverable ammo recoverable. Maybe a 25% of recovery.
• A lucky find type passive that drops low level bolts/softballs.
• A weak teleport ability for archery. Maybe a random teleport with a 20-30 turn cooldown.
• Capstone of Throwing gives a dazed debuff instead of crushed bones
• Capstone of Archery gives a - debuff instead of bleeding out

 

Played around with thrown items some. The lv 1 skill is pretty nice, and a good way for Warriors to deal with mages. Level 2-6, not so much. It seems like it kind of caps out after you get Beaned. The rest of the tree isn't worth putting points into. Ammo recovery is a bit nicer here than in Archery because you can't craft dozens of throwables, but still not a reason to waste skill points.

 

It just doesn't do a whole lot for taking an entire skill tree. Especially when any weapon tree can give you enough enemy dodge reduction to make you badass with ranged weapons even without the procs or ammo recovery. By the time you're this far in a weapon tree you've probably got plenty of ranged damage variety as well.

I don't know. This might have a fair amount of bias because I love crafting, but on top of what you can already do as an archer or thrower without those trees, they just seem kind of irrelevant in light of what I'd consider to be better options. Tinkering has enough bolt-crafting ability to mitigate the loss of ammo recovery and also gives you the best trap affinity for your dollar if I'm not mistaken. That's on top of all the other things tinkering gets you (and don't get me started on some of these crafting mods). There's perception too, which can get you tons of free items, sight range and dodge reduction if I recall correctly, so pair that with tinkering and you've got even more bolts coming your way, plus actually hitting enemies when you shoot them, plus a huge range to shoot from, plus laughing at any pitiful attempt that traps may muster against your reign of terror. At this point archery is kind of lackluster.

Shwqa up there has some good ideas to spice it up, but I still don't know if I'd take them without a truly dedicated ranged build. Even with the procs he suggested, it just seems like I could do more with other skills.

 

OK, so, for the Essential Core Skills Rebalance, bringing thrown/crossbows in line with the new weapon skills, what do y'all think of this:


Crossbows


Logic: the argument right now is that Tinkering is a better archery skill than Archery, because Ingeniously Scythed and lots of ammo. "Lots of ammo" is still totally possible without Tinkering if you devote your Ingots exclusively to archery, so super-high recovery/'get ammo free' isn't necessary -- the point of contention is the damage numbers.

Unfortunately, there's no real way to up the damage numbers on Archery without also upping them for Archery+Tinkering, but I don't think that that's actually a problem in the long run because enemy HP stills scale up faster than the damage you'll be dealing. So, Crossbows get a LOT of bonus damage so that if you don't take Tinkering, all of those plain Iron Arrows you'll be making will still be respectableish down the line.

Besides damage, Archery likes keeping enemies away from you (Crossbow Blast), long range (Sniper's Nest, You're To Blame), and DoTs to take advantage of the enemy's slow advance (Bleeding Out, You're To Blame).
The choice between stances is somewhat minor (both keep the enemy at bay (one with knocks and the other with lockdown), but one can get you out of being cornered by a surprise horde or unexpected invisible monster, while the other takes advantage of your locked-down foe by DoTting it at the same time) and I'd like to make them more distinct, but I'm still brainstorming on that.


[edit] I altered the Fleshbore proc so that it also mutes the target (for Archery only). That gives Archers a more interesting decision: keepaway stance to keep the h2h combatants at bay, or fastball special in order to prevent spellcasters from being annoying. I think that's an appropriate choice to have to make.[/edit]

1 +1 Piercing, +1 Crit, +15% Recovery.

2 +2 Piercing, Stance: Keepaway. 20% chance to proc Crossbow Blast (modified to trigger Unresistable Knock and with minor damage scaling to EDR), plus a 20% chance to step away from a foe that hits you in melee combat (if terrain allows.)

3 +2 Piercing, +6 EDR.

4 +2 Piercing, +20% Recovery, Activated Ability: Sniper's Nest*

5 +3 Piercing, Stance: And You're To Blame. 18% chance to proc Fleshbore and a 2-turn unresistable lockdown with each attack.

6 +4 Piercing, +5 Crit. Passive: 15% chance to proc Bleeding Out (which now scales with Sneakiness. 3 turns of 2+(.1*Sneakiness) Piercing Damage.)


*Snipers Nest I'm still working out the mechanics of, but I'm thinking that it'll work like Inverse Minion Law, but for *walls*. Template check using an type="adjacentwall" spell. The more walls you have around you, the bigger your bonus to Sight Radius and Crit Chance. breakonmove like Celestial Circle, with a fairly long cooldown. This makes you actually feel like a sniper, hopefully.







Throwing (now a Warrior skill!)

Throwing should be a Warrior skill, because Melee Power is one of it's main sources of extra damage. Because thrown weapons get all of your exotic damage bonuses from Tomes and whatnot, it doesn't need the same kind of damage bonuses that Crossbows get. Instead, Throwing focuses on a pure Warrior's one big oversight: EDR. Throwers are accurate to a T, and they toss in a little bit of Dodge, too, because yin yang blah blah.

Mechanically, Throwing has always been about keeping up with ammo -- you can get thousands of Softballs, but your supply of Nzappa Zapps is pretty slim and gets burned through fast. So, Throwing's big bow to ammo is a huge recovery rate (+75% over the tree, because IIRC it's halved when you actually hit something, which given the EDR should be "mostly").

Monster Toss and Beaned keep monsters away -- Throwing is actually better at this than Archery. Crushed Bones and Fleshbore both subtract from enemy armor and melee power, making Throwing also a better choice for 'warming up' an enemy before melee. Basically, the choice between the stances is the choice between more turns to throw at the monster and a monster that's weaker to melee when it reaches you -- a good choice for a Warrior to have to make.


1 +1 Crushing, +1 Dodge, Stance: Hulky Hurler. +4 Burliness, 20% proc Beaned.

2 +2 EDR, 5% recovery, Activated Ability: Monster Toss

3 +2 Crushing, +5 Dodge, +2 EDR, +10% recovery

4 +2 EDR, 15% recovery, Passive: 24% proc Crushed Bones

5 +3 Crushing, +3 EDR, +20% recovery.

6 +5 EDR, +25% recovery, Stance: Fastball Special. +4 Asphyxiative Damage, 29% proc Fleshbore.

 

What are Hulky Hurler and Fastball Special?

 

Stances, I am not certain but I think the first one makes hits stronger but less accurate while the other does the reverse.

 

Sorry, each stance is followed by the mechanics it activates. Hulky Hurler gives +4 Burliness and a 20% beaned proc; Fastball Special gives an Asphyxiative damage bonus and a Fleshbore proc.

 

Yup, I definitely was not certain. I pretty much failed a spot check there.