Thrown vs Crossbow

Given their highly different mechanics, I doubt the two types of ranged ammunition are equals in quite the way that melee weapons are roughly on par with each other. One type of ranged attack scales with melee power + ammo, the other scales with weapon effects + ammo.

Having not used either except as a last-ditch emergency, I'm curious as to what the pros, cons, and relative damage are according to people who've actually used them. I'm interested in as full of an explanation as you're willing to give me, since the wikis tend to be either obtuse (dredmorpedia) or extremely incomplete (dredmorwiki). Information like:

1. Which is the more useful skill tree?
2. How useful are thrown/crossbows for backup damage on a character who doesn't take the associated skill tree?
3. How useful are thrown/crossbows for noncombat utility? (breaking walls, pushing items around, etc)
4. General mechanics - precisely how is the damage calculated at the end of the day with your skills, worn equipment, and the ammo's base stats?
5. Are these weapons dependent on having a crafting skill, or merely easier to use with a crafting skill?

Thank you for reading, and thanks for taking the time to help me out!
EDIT: it sounds like crossbows are simply the winner in every category? Which leaves thrown only useful as backup utility when out of bolts/mana?

 

This probably wont be as informative as you would ike, and I would like to hear input from others, but just that I beat the vanilla with archery and am working on my random skills play through with throwing. I would say either one rewards you well. Since you can use the AoE items from either group of ranged, make sure to pick them up even if they aren't your specialty. I have mixed feelings on monstrous throw and the root ability of the bolos is quite handy.

Since you can make bolts wiht zero level tinkering that seems slightly easier to obtain, but as long as you are using the glyphs in the room of demands to make the correct type of vending machine, things shouldn't be too rough to come by.

 

The Throwing skill really isn't worth it.

• Thrown weapons scale with
• To maximise you need a lot of Warrior skills
• A lot of Warrior skills makes you really good at melee, but leaves you without any of the support skills that ranged combat relies on (teleports, disables, invisibility, etc)

At which point you find yourself meleeing everything and not needing the ammo recovery. Besides, a good evil chest crossbow can blow a high level Warrior's out of the water.

There's only two cases that I'd use the Throwing skill:

• While Killing Blow is bugged and lets you have unlimited crits with thrown weapons
• While Grenades are bugged to let you recover them

 

Killing Blow also lets you have unlimited crits with crossbow shots. Some things to consider:

• Thrown Weapon skill is somewhat subpar compared to Archery on account of Crossbow Blast being a passive proc while Monster Toss is activated and doesn't do much damage.
• Thrown Weapon skill doesn't increase your being a Rogue skill.
• Smithing is a better choice for acquiring thrown weapon ammunition since it increases your and because grenades and explosives aren't too safe when throwing at a closer range.

Your choice of Thrown Weapons goes Nnazpa-Zzap, Javelins, Thermite Bombs, Grenades, Noxious Brimstone Flasks for craftables and Holy Hand Grenade for non-craftables. Going Wizard for Alchemy or better HHG/Explosive effects is another way to go about it.

 

Thanks for the responses! I'll be keeping them in mind as I design my "Batman" character (a tool/spell for every situation). I get the sinking feeling I'll be stuck using Tinkering as my trapfinding skill + creating useful ranged ammo; it's just too good even though I hate crafting.

Edited the OP to be more specific.

 

(Ponders revamping Throwing in his Core Rebalance based on this information.)

 

I actually like throwing more then archery, but it's clear that archery is the better skill.

 

Yeah I love throwing better too, but its true it should be rebalanced.
Also being able to find thrownable weapons in evil chests, and some rare thrown weaponry that can always be recovered would be a lot better.

 

Throwing is also horribly glitched at the moment allowing you to hit anything anywhere on-screen, ignoring walls, objects, enemies and even lack of vision of the target (this doesn't apply to thrown items that target the floor).

So that's a positive.

 

Don't thrown items still get damage bonuses from all non weapon sources?

 

Yes they do.

 

If I understand correctly, does that mean anything you throw, including Ruigi's runes as well as blades/grenades/gasses, receive (base damage) + (armor/shield damage enchantments) + (melee power)?

 

That's essentially the way it works, yes (although I haven't used Rune Crafting yet, but if they work like all the other thrown weapons...) However, crossbows get non-weapon enchantment bonuses too.

 

So basically it comes down to the melee power vs the Crossbow damage. I think that throwing should be a warrior skill and possibly provide some and bonuses.

And I am still not sure how monstrous throw works. If you could throw one monster (next to you) across the room into another monster, it would merit the 32 move cooldown.

 

You could fake it by having the skill deal knockback as well as damage in a line-shaped template. Not quite target collision detection, but close enough.

 

criticals with crossbow shots are meaningless, aren't they? Critical hits just double your for the attack don't they?

 

They also make the shot impossible to dodge or block, at least as of now.

 

Fair enough.

 

Crossbow pros:
Crossbow damage is added to bolt damage
Crossbow cons:
Tinkering is pretty much required for sustained use (and most of the best crossbows are rare outside crafting), as well as (generally) perception,RS, or CK for the chance to drop bolt crafting mats.

Throwing pros:
Attack power is added to throwing damage, so very useful for dual wielding warriors (with each weapon having a different primary damage type). Couple this with explosives, and you're putting the "pow" back in attack power.
Leaves your crossbow slot free for that crossbow that's only 5 star quality, but has something like 2 mana regen and some armor/resists on it as random enchantments (doubly applicable for archaeologists).
Throwing cons:
Tinkering (explosives) OR smithing (Og chuck spear, kill mammoth) and perception or CK are highly advised for sustained use.

Note:many of the fun thrown items are a COMPONENT for the equivalent bolt.

Conclusion:
It you will mostly save them for 'special occasions', or you are hella strong, use thrown. If you want to exhaust your cooldowns, then start mowing down EVERYTHING, use a crossbow.

 

Throwing is for when your pure warrior wants to deal some damage at range
Archery is for when your rouge who took tinkering wants to deal some damage at range.
I'm not a huge fan of either.