Essential Core Skills Rebalance II: Electric Bungalow

Please tell me heradric is a creative pun between Horadric (from the Diablo series) and Heraldic from the line of Heraldic shields in various games!

 

I'll tell you what:

Spoiler: the truth

I really don't know!

 

This one modifies core files, while the other one adds new files. Hence them not being merged.

 

Because then it wouldn't be a skills rebalance, it would a skills and items rebalance.

 

I'm just stupid. I went to the wrong thread.

 

Are there any notes for Archery and Deadshot skills? Can't find them in this thread.

Edit: Also need Polearms notes.

 

With the Dual Wield Nerf, I'm pretty much going to switch to either 1h + tome, Dual tomes or dual shields. Since Dual Wield is kinda the lifeblood of Weapon Skills(Swords, Axes, Daggers and Maces Especially), and -20EDR is super harsh(Capping it immediately is severely penalizing to Builds that require several early skill advances, such as Tinker + Burglary or Dual Crafting Skills + RS or CK), effectively reducing EDR to 0 for the first 4-6 character levels(if you don't level Dual Wield). I'm probably going to refuse Swords/Axes/Maces/Daggers/Dual Wield Altogether unless the -20 EDR is reduced to like -5 to -10 and/or Weapon Skills have a decent(around +3) EDR Bonus with EDR bonuses on later levels.

Edit: Looking at the Weapon Skills design documents, it looks like the EDR there was nerfed also. How the hell am I going to melee Dredmor if he keeps dodging my attacks? Dredmor needs at least 60 EDR in order to not be dodged most of the time.

 

Depending on the build, debuffing mister Dredmor might be an option. Or alternatively, imbibing every single sort of mushrooms and potions all at once and dying in a blaze of glory ... or a colourful fart of non-glory, mushroom overdose and all that.

 

I'm just happy that this rebalance is completely optional and not implemented in the main game. I would hate to lose weapon skills to EDR nerfs. Edit: Especially since most Heavy Warrior Gear already nerfs EDR.

 

The fact here is that dual wield was too much good for being a lvl0 forever skill, since all those buffs of higher levels weren't so much in comparison of just having dual wield without one never thinking of it ever again.
Plus, the new weapons can stand more of a chance on their own, since they're much complex than just "bonus and on-hit chance when you wield that weapon".

But I can recall the -20 as a temporary change to dual wield until something better shows up.
So you that doens't like it could help the project with hints of what one could do to balance Dual Wield with most of the other skills.
If you think -20 is too much, what could be done to reduce it and still not make this skill too good even in lvl0 state?

 

Probably buff the higher level abilities in Dual Wield, giving passive stats(like perception) and/or give special abilities(kinda like swashbuckling, aoe attacks[like an attack that hits the 2 enemies on the side, 2 in front corners and 1 in front(but not the 3 back squares), that scales with counter chance] or maybe a move that buffs damage greatly for 1 turn each time you counter. Perhaps spawning of items? or maybe a missile spell where you throw one of your weapons at the enemy(maybe like a boomerang, like Thor)?

Edit: or maybe a buff that only applies extra damage on counterattacks and not on regular attacks?
I think damage/melee power should be nerfed in addition to EDR so that the EDR nerf doesn't seem so dreadful. Especially if none of my suggestions get implemented.

 

The point is that the skill tree itself is so good without the nerf that getting it and not putting any points in it gives you more than taking some other skill trees and actually putting points into them. Which is why just boosting the higher tiers for it is not, sadly, the solution.

 

Exactly what I was for saying.
While it is simple to balance high levels of skills, it's still the lvl0 which is very very powerfool to leave behind. At this same state of being, it's still better to use Dual Wield without even a single weapon skill. Ence, if you want to use double weapons, you must focus on it or succumb on it (but this is for the actual state of things in the code).

So, again: lvl 0 and the need to balance it.
Maybe a on-hit chance to miss or hit with less EDR at lvl0 and a cancellation of this effect for like lvl3?

 

a damage nerf would be great. It would make the EDR loss not seem so bad. Because most builds I play only end up with <15 EDR by level 5(if I don't prioritize EDR right away)

 

So basically instead to never hit on the first level you prefer to always hit and never kill someone because of the damage nerf? ^^'

 

The problem with a damage nerf likes in the fact that there are three basic types of damage, and the nerf would have to be something like -5 or -6 (if not more) ... to all of them. And even then it isn't going to be good enough on the higher levels, which again defeats the purpose.

Ignoring the fact that flavour-wise decreased damage doesn't really make any sense (and decreased accuracy does, which I can tell you as someone who has some training with using swords) because it is a game and it doesn't really have to be realistic, the problem lies in the fact that the penalties to damage don't really scale well, so we'd have to start with a penalty that would cripple any character using normal weapons for the next 4–5 floors if we wanted to make them “nerfy” enough. Which would still have you saying it's too much, believe me, because anything that isn't “too much” would be “not enough”.

It is, after all, a skill that with no points spent gets rid of the penalty that reduces your melee damage to a third of its value. Decreasing the damage by reducing the frequency of hits—which scales much better than a simple penalty to damage—is a good way to go at it, maybe not the best one but a good way, much better than a damage penalty.

Of course, one can instead weave a diabolic web of triggers to make it work better without making it that much of a handicap on the very beginning, but believe me, it isn't really worth it. Yes, it is doable, and yes, it can be done and all that ... but it would still be a penalty to EDR then—possibly with a damage penalty too—just one that starts lower and gets worse the more you attack without rest, which would make it better normally but much worse for monster zoos and packs of enemies which probably are the situations most problematic even without that. But, of course, if that is a change you want, then it could be done, and it wouldn't really take more than a day assuming there would be icons for the debuffs and Essence has no problems with either adding that or giving his permission to do this.

 

The main reason why I disputed the EDR Nerf in the first place is because many times I would end up with multiple skills that each take their own levels. Usually I have at least 1 skill that I only pick because of it's first level bonus, because by the end of the game, I've maxed just about every skill except one, which only has 1-2 points in it while i'm fighting Lord Dredmor.(This is with 15 Floors, Large floors and GRPD). By forcing me to level Dual Wield instead of say, Smithing(or Tinkering), all it does is provide an early game nerf, which is unaffordable for Dual Wield Rogues especially. I've played a Rogue Scientist build before and it turns out very demanding on skill points, making me reach Floor 6+ by the Time I max Alchemy, tinkering and RS, leaving no room to level other skills unless it's for Trap Sight or any other critical stats/skills. Besides, Tomes can do almost the same damage as a second weapon. It's unlikely to be able to afford/access a very high level weapon early on.

Edit: I believe the solution would be to either provide more skills with less levels(like before deadshot was merged with archery) or raise the amount of levels gained by Floor 15.

 

I don't see the problem then, it only change best builds possible, so you should either learn how new skills work, or stop using this mod entirely. Or, to be not rough, if your only problem is not getting the edr penality in builds that are doing something else (as rogue scientist with those many sinergy skills), you could just use something else.

As we said, the matter of the change was exactly to prevent people from getting one of the most powerful skills in the game, left it al lvl0 being able to dual every weapon without penalities, and never and ever question it (level it) again. And as you are saying to us, this job was done well.

Beside that what are you suggesting is impossible: low level skills were abandoned for the lack of interest in them (it's like having half a skill with just 2 levels to go from lvl0 to lvlmax) and furthermore either you get a too powerful skill (as dual wield can be without debuffs) if you put bonuses for 5 levels into those 3, or you get a weak skill no one wants.
And the second thing is done with mods that put a lot of mini bosses and exp givers in some way, not directly changing the exp received (if no one wish to unbalance the game). Or you could use the Elven Superdifficulty of brother Omnia and whoever recovered that.

 

In the end, I'll decide not to use this mod(I was just worried that it would be incorporated to the main game). If it gets incorporated into the main game, I'll stick with 1h Weapon + Tome unless I want a counter build, then I would dual wield. Dual Wield Daggers is still viable, seeing how daggers has the counter stance. 4 Skill Points into Dual Wield instead of something else is actually not that bad(it takes 5 to get counter stance from Daggers, and some skills go all the way up to 7-8), but I doubt I'll ever have a Crafting Build mixed with a Dual Wield build unless I'm making like a Berserker Warrior(Berserkers tend to miss alot anyway).

 

We should update the descriptions of vanilla skills.
Axe skill tree hate new polearm description like hell.
Later I'll post something.