@IanExMachina Unhidden craft is still better the moment you get them, which is floor 2 and 3. By floor 4 where 6 to 7 damage weapon becomes common, the "fine iron sword" you made with 3 skill point cease to pay off. Any damage difference is offset by the 3 skill point wasted (that can just be put into sword). Once this equilibrium is reach, smith becomes useless. So do a melee character need to pick a skill and level it just for floor 2 and 3? No. Without access to serpentine armor, katana/flail, and ring of iron thorn, there's nothing smith offers past floor 4. Also, the "burliness" is not exactly a bonus when you consider smith as a "rogue" skill. Warrior skill gets 2 burliness by default. The difference between smith from a warrior skill is actually 2 "Savvy", which give what, Haywire? Sneakiness? A completely useless stat for a warrior build. As it is now, from floor 7 onward the only unique feature for smiting might very well be that ring of iron thorn. It is the one item that is nearly impossible to find otherwise, and something smith can offers til the very end. So what makes another skill tree better? Because they can get you through floor 2 and 3 anyway, and doesn't become useless for the whole game.
Ideas to salvage the bookcases? These are just ideas - I think crafting is balanced right now but since I always take a crafting skill I might be a bit biased. For unknown recipes, potential nerfs: <ul> <li>Requires 2x the ingredients (you must stack the ingredients) <li>Random chance for crafting to fail, eating your ingredients <li>Poor quality - random minor corruption applied to crafted items </ul> For known recipes, potential buffs: <ul> <li>Good quality - random minor bonus applied to crafted items </ul> General: <ul> <li>Only make the absolute top-tier recipes hidden. <ul> <li>Full Plate Armor is known => Serpentine is hidden <li>Triple Flail is known => Flail of Pleiades is hidden <li>Staff of Immaculate Conceptualization is known => Jingly Jangly Staff of Crystals is hidden </ul> </ul>
BTW, if you try to craft a Katana without knowing/using the recipe (placing 2 Steel Ingots and a Fine Steel Sword on the anvil), you will just make some Throwing Stars instead. Thus it seems that you have to use the recipes to make the most complex of weapons.
@123stw Man, are you even aware that other people MIGHT have other playstyles? I'm with you in some points, smithing should be a warrior skill (tinkerer rogue, and alchemy wizard), but seriously, "not optimal" doesn't equal "distilled crap".
@Psiweapon Note that I have to compare it with other skills to see how balance smith is. By definition balance is the comparison of where something stands relative to others. So long as I got the message that "smith is balanced now", that smith will be "non optimal and replaceable" if hidden recipe cannot be crafted, I say that's good enough.
Man, the number of recipes that now exists blows away what Dredmor shipped with. And they absolutely break the very rough notion of some kind of balance with the recipes being hidden. So: I like the idea of just making the really special recipes hidden. Mundane stuff will be available purely form skill progression, but extra-special crafts will take some searching. Or just cheesing the craft system and a wiki, whatever. We could probably close that hole, maybe. I'll loosen way up on the hidden tag for the next version and let's see how it works.
The "remember the recipe then use it" way would work if internet would exist. That would be a real classic going rogue way. But now that it does that system sucks. People just wiki the things and that's that. I would really love if a recipe is needed in order to craft something. If you can't find the recipe you can't craft it. Also make ingots a bit easier to get to solve the crafting dilemma.
When crafting was in-development, I had a system worked out for random craft components, like a reaction would take any 4 from a list of 8 so it'd be different for every game. Would have been a good trick - cut for time, naturally.
@David As long as the list of hidden isn't flooded with bad items to kill the RNG, I think it should be fine. I also think the whole "you find nothing interesting" should be removed too, and shelf will generate only recipes you haven't received. It turns searching to a "when" rather than "if", and allows expanding the hidden list without completely killing the chances. Given nearly all craft-able items can be commonly picked up throughout the game, all recipes needs to be found by the end of floor 9. Otherwise there is no point of picking/leveling the skill. As of now I can open up every single bookshelves in the game and find nothing useful for a specific build. This is true for the past 3 smith runs I made on 1.05.
@123stw Yeah, the "you find nothing interesting" happening without all recipes being discovered is just dumb. I'll put that on a list somewhere if it isn't already.
I really like the idea of the random craft components (it's kind of the crafting equivalent of randomized items like 'plaid potions', etc. Regardless of whether recipes are random, I'd also love to see all but the best recipes be made known, and the hidden ones require the recipe. So crafters can be guaranteed the ability to craft decent items, but not necessarily the best items (until/unless you find those recipes). And it will mean that finding the hidden recipes will be a lot more meaningful.
@David The random components craft sounds good and very roguelike-like. That would mostly trump the wiki reference, but paired with "only top tier stuff is hidden" should work fine I think What I'd love to see for crafting: MOAR CLOCKWORK STUFF. Wind-up powered armor, voltaic discharge staff, mechanical swords, anything!! There is a good deal of magic and alchemical weapons, why not give the clockwork/steampunk side some more love? Maybe it hasn't got the biggest target demographic, but we sure are diehard fans That's what made me a BIG Arcanum fan!
You can change the game files so every craftable item is displayed. Heres how: Locate the game files usally located in: C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\dungeons of dredmor\game Find craftDB.xml Use the search function to search for : hidden="1" Change it to : hidden="0" Save Next time you load the game and take a crafting skill, all items you can craft will now be visible.
