Oh, I forgot - I'd like to see more cross-class synergy in any system I game with. There's a natural need in DnD for fighters to run with rogues. Mr. Broadsword isn't going to find or disarm any traps, now is he? On the other hand, well trained fighters and rogues can abuse the flanking ability to tear their enemies apart. Both the Power Attack feat and the Sneak Attack class feature play well with it, giving the fighter and the rogue two very significant reasons to want to team up. So consider giving some kinds of cross-class benefits out. Maybe Gatherers can makes spells anyone can use (at a penalty of some sort). Let Shapers append a modifier to someone elses spells, or a Channeler gift the spell they just drew to someone else. These would be cool, flavorful and fun ways to encourage cooperation between classes that currently sound like they just want to do their own things...
Well, if it ever got through, this is what might be possible (in my opinion): Shapers could use certain combinations of words to give power-ups to Channellers. Channellers could discard a card to add a one-use word (dependant on the card) for Shapers. Shapers could use certain combinations of words to make spells of Gatherers not get used up (but instead only consume power-ups). Gatherers could make effects that would restore used up words for Shapers. Channellers could discard their cards to regenerate/copy some ingredients for Gatherers. Gatherers could make power-ups for Channellers. But honestly, I think that things like that should come after the first testing, to see if it's even necessary. Especially because it might be more abusable than it looks now.
I checked that. I didn't see anything that looks like what Kazuhiro was describing. Unless, of course, as mentioned, I'm stupid. [edit] Yep, stupid. Never thought to check the link at the bottom to the 'spell and feat database.' Looking it over now.
I think that you do not have to have everything set in unbreakable stone yet. Gatherers can be limited at first and if the limit is too much, you can (As the DM) change things on the fly to level the playing field. Likewise if it turns out that Gatherers are too potent, you can apply new restrictions or even interfere with whatever game breaking thing a Gatherer tries to do. If for example, I tried to ruin your well planned ambush by tossing an Acorn of Uber-Doom that would totally nerf the event, you can say that it had an effect, but more ambushers came from the other way. (You may even say that if I used my other ambush ruiners, more would be spawned to keep me in check.) The others have put much more thought into the specifics of this than I. But do not forget that players are to be trodden on by DMs when they are foolish enough to try to ruin your campaign.
Yes no. Some things are better than others (Fire's Strike might be OP, same for some of the Earth bullshit), but the weak options are meant to have little situations where they might be an okay alternative (Fire's Aid). Things that have crappy features (Decay Strike) should have other things that are good features. If a lot of spells have Aid/Bless/Curse on top of other effects, like Strike, it will I think weaken the option of alternating between a few spells all with the same word in order to spam the best Bless or whatever. Then you're using the other effects at the same time, and those other effects might be bad, like an Emptiness Ward.
As things are now I would go for 2 Strength, 2 Quickness. 3 Knowledge, 4 Cleverness. 4 Presence, and 4 Attunement.(Since we have 19 total points to divide here.) As I said, I would believe myself to be a Plant. I would be vehemently in favor of Nature and Plant life over all other things. I would grow Plants because I think they are my duty to the Natural world. I would have no problem with people eating the fruits of Plants, nor Vegetables. But I would be pissed beyond comparison when someone harms a Plant without good reason. If the game is going to allow such a feat, I would hope to have a sentient Plant companion similar to a D&D familiar. If it is slain, I could regrow it quickly without cost, and if I am in a battle, I could sacrifice some Plant matter that I would otherwise use as components of a spell to grow it back or restore it to life without having to stop combat and wait. I would view it as a spell Seed and could give it a boost in combat by sacrificing reagents just like if I had used them to restore it to life. This boost would depend on my level, my desires, and what reagents and how much I used to power it. As an example let us say we are fighting something that spits fire at us. My Plant Familiar may get burned badly by this. But if I sacrifice a bit of a fire based spell seed, it would gain resistance to fire and restore some health or even boost the maximum health for a while. If it is still outmatched, I could sacrifice more to give it better fire resistance and perhaps regeneration to even the odds. My character will be a Plant fanatic. He will see the familiar as an extension of Nature itself and think that he is in service to it. It conversely would feel similarly about him. (As most familiars do.) My character would perform rituals to regain his familiar when it is slain, although he would not understand that it is a familiar and would come back even if he did not do the rituals. He could sacrifice Seeds to strengthen it not only for a single combat, but to give it a boost forever. As it is a familiar and a Plant, it would occasionally give him Seeds it made. They could be used as weapons, or as aid to the party. They could also be used to strengthen other Seeds he has or even to temporarily strengthen the familiar itself. If my character ever totally loses all spell Seeds he has, the familiar would be capable of giving him enough to get a Garden started again. (As well as some to keep myself and my companions safe. The amount and potency depends largely on your discretion.) It may not be impressive to start, but it would grow as a normal Gatherer Garden. Any camp we form would have one or more Seeds sown to Bless and fortify the area. If something attacks us while we rest, the Seeds planted would activate to dramatic effect, but would be expended. (The area would still be Blessed, but other bonuses gained by the Seeds may be negated or reduced.) If my character is to have a starting feat of some sort, I would like to have a special one. It is a Blessing and a curse in a way. Since I think I am a Plant and that it is my duty to grow Plants everywhere, anytime I start a Garden, it is part of a massive unified Garden. No distance really separates them. So I can effectively go around sowing Seeds until I have next to nothing left but by reaching any Plant I can harvest basic Seeds from it. They would not be Uber Seeds by any means. But they can be used for any of the purposes I have like Blessing a campsite and starting new Gardens. It can sure be argued that this would give me unlimited Seeds, but remember they are *Basic* Seeds and it takes time and effort to make them Uber. In a pinch, even after my familiar has given me it's own temporary Seeds, I could use the familiar itself as a conduit to the Unified Garden. My character does not willingly eat meat when Vegetables and Fruits are available. But I can and will if nothing else is available or there is another reason to do so. My character sees that Plants eat meats in a way, so it is clearly not forbidden, but he also sees that Plants rarely go out of their way to seek out meat. (Although some plants actually are predatory in this world.) I see my character mostly functioning as an apothecary for the party. I will make magically infused Fruits and Vegetables to cure poisons and heal wounds of those who eat them. Or if the need arises, I can readily turn those into contact salves for applying to a wound rather than try to cram a heal berry down someone's throat. In case it is not obvious by now, then I question if you read any of this.. But I am trying to lay out a plan and all the nice details that make a good RPG fun for everyone. If any of this sounds too potent or you guys have better ideas that fit the theme I am attempting, please lay it out for us. Oh, Since I did not mention it before, my familiar is a rootless plant. It does not need soil nor food to survive. Water is good, and it cannot drown. Cold has little effect on it but can make it brittle if it is frozen. Thus making melee much more dangerous while frozen. But if even a portion survives it will regrow with time. In a battle I expect my familiar to melee everything it can get to. It can touch to cause a blistering wound like a really bad case of Poison Ivy, but it is harmless to myself and the party (And any other allies for that matter. It is magical after all.) I will spend most time in combat trying to plant little Seeds to boost the party and hinder foes. Direct damage is unlikely to be my forte. But in a pinch I could toss a handful of magical Seeds that I will have no direct control of. They will hinder foes and poison them as well as cause short-living Kamikaze Plants that seek out foes and explode for a random elemental burst that only effects that one foe for an amount of damage based upon my level, the level of the buff seeds in place in the battlefield, and the element as well as the elemental damage resistance of the enemy effected. In a long combat, I will have time to get more seeds in place, and may well turn into a Vegetative Wrecking-Ball of sorts. Remember not to let everything I do be Godlike unless it is really what you want from the game. Far more to come. But this is already too long by a page and a half or so. *Edit* I only edited this to remove the "5" I somehow put in the middle of a word that as far as I know, does not include any numbers.
I have no idea how I'll handle familiars, because yes, it would be nice for people to be able to have familiars. The idea of a familiar that's a fighter to take seriously seems to break my concept of "everything you do is like a 4th edition power card." The idea of planting permanent gardens that you can then access from anywhere ELSE that you have planted a garden is highly interesting. Feats are supposed to have big effects (+1 to every time you do a certain type of action is meant to be a big effect), so I'll think about what exactly to do there. I already knew Gatherers would have permanent gardens, though I hadn't bothered thinking about how players would use them. I figure they're just infinite duplicate slots, but only for unmodified spells. Maybe they could also integrate the "grow into new things" idea, and maybe feats could make them better, like let them duplicate modified stuff, but I wouldn't expect any player to want said feats unless they wanted a "build" focused on that, like you. Okay, kind of cool that you're making me work out a mechanic for the sake of your character. Channeler has far less "well maybe I'll change this radically" going on, so I'll get to work on those spells. The idea to give classes the ability to support each other is a good one. Questionable as to how Channeler could do it. Currently, Shapers will pretty universally be able to hand out two or three different types of buffs, so there's that.
I am sure you will decide on something fair. But it would drastically change my ideals of a character design and the goals therof if I can only access seeds from a garden I am standing next to. I just want to work around that obstacle.
The only way I see that working without me working out something radical is that it's a large increase to your duplicating ability, in exchange for you losing the seeds that you plant, and the fluffy aspects of not-secure locations and the potential to not have any plants to harvest from. A familiar would have to be a feat or a summon spell. I have done zero thought about this and I'm stuck because with all the D&D influence I've got here, I think D&D familiars are stupid. Still, I think your familiar would work out as a summon spell maybe.
I have, similarly, done no thought towards campaigns in which the player's permanent garden is relevant. Just having the gardens be infinite low-level duplicate slots seems a little lame. Perhaps if they also upgrade everything planted in it, but very slowly compared to improving portable "fruit." I sort of like that it's basically waiting for the spell to be ripe. The thing is, there are going to be a lot of Gatherers whose stuff wouldn't grow when left alone. Maybe you can't have a permanent garden unless you take a feat, so characters that it doesn't make sense for just won't take the option. Maybe a similar option for those Gatherers who aren't into letting their stuff grow while they're away. About your concept of the support character who plants things that give buffs: Remember that stacking bonuses of any kind are HUGE HUGE HUGE in this 3d6 system. +2 to any stat could easily be enough to make rolls with that stat unbeatable. I will come up with ways so that your auras either only help certain types of actions, or do not buff the entire party. One of my buddies actually explained a concept to me that explains the way I talk so much when I'm working out an idea. The idea is that you keep a rubber ducky on your desk, and when thinking about your code, you explain how it works to the duck to help you think.
A summon would work just fine. So long as the duration is long enough to last at least through whatever combat we are in. As a proposed compromise, how about for every seed I sow a dice is rolled to determine if I get another seed as a bonus whenever I get seeds? I still think the summoned plant should be able to give basic seeds. Even if they are only a temporary thing. But then the problem of what to do if I sow a seed as an alert if monsters come that way? If I go to sleep, will the plant remain or will it cease to exist when the summoned plant that gave the temporary seeds goes poof? I am not trying to run the game by being too potent. But rather to get a handle on what I can reasonably do and what is too much. What about the idea of sowing seeds in battle to defend us? Would they be essentially a bunch of summons or would they be real plants with a temporary cognitive ability directing them to support us? And if I sow seeds to be expendable Plant based shields, would they work, or would that be too much of a screwover to the existing ideas you have? Finally one last question. Am I moving too quickly? I know Gatherers are not the only concern here, and I know you already have too many things to decide on. Please feel free to tell me to STFU. *Edit* Ninja'ed!
And I guess I am using the term "Seeds" where I should specify Seeds, Fruits, and Vegetables. I think I answered my own last question in the last post by re-reading the walls of text I wrote. You need time, and you will make no real progress if all you have time to do is answer my impatiently asked questions. I will STFU for the night and pester you with ideas tomorrow.
Channeler support spells: Non Sequitur - (Uncommon?) - Nearby enemies are Confused for one turn. Until your next turn, allied Shapers within earshot may use one word not normally part of their vocabulary. Echoing Shout - (Rare?) - cone damage, debuff/knockback of some sort; until your next turn, allied Shapers within earshot may use one Superword without spending a daily use [or 37% chance to be free, or superwords are 50% louder, or may use a free superword for 50% of the usual benefit, whatever seems balanced] Pinch of Spices - (Uncommon?) - Enemies in target area begin sneezing and have blurred vision for X turns. Allied Gatherers in the area may immediately Tinker up to three of their spells. These Tinker effects expire if not cast within the next 10 minutes. Trikkor Tree - (Rare) - A tree erupts from the ground, dealing minor damage but knocking foes away. The tree's branches contain 1d6 random low-level Gatherer fruits, which rot if not used by the end of the day (or immediately should an enemy or non-Gatherer attempt to use them). Feats: Cheat Sheet - May discard cards to refresh Shaper cooldowns. Volunteer Growth - May discard cards to add random (temporary) vegetables to a Gatherer's bag. Spells let me do something cool *and* help a teammate, but aren't always in my hand; the feats would be more reliable, but unless I have spare cards from previous turns I'm stuck Crossbowing (and taking the feat means I'm not taking a feat that gives me more Rares/Draws/stats). *tosses ideas on the pile and walks away* ... *walks back in, pats the rubber ducky on the head, smiles, walks away again*
>talk of seeds and spell components as distinct from just spells being carried around Nope. >Sacrificing Seeds to give the familiar a permanent buff New system. Potentially massive power. A new way by which Gatherers could slowly build to a WTF level of power, and using a different resoruce. Maybe in another playtest. For now nope. >The familiar can give me seeds if I'm desperately screwed Not only "nope" but never. >my familiar has special attacks Using Gatherer spells to give your summoned monster powers is an interesting idea and one that deserves experimentation. Ever played Guild Wars? Rangers with pets had skills that were functionally the same as their actual skills except they made the pet do an attack. They even had an "pet lunges and interrupts a spell that's still in its casting animation" that was identical to other classes' ability to use an interrupt effect. We'll have that idea as well as short term buffs. >if I were to sow plants in battle, what would they be? No sowing gardens in battle. Summoning will be fine. Ever played against a mid Zyra? Like that. "Summon a turret plant at target location" or "summon two suicide bomber plants that cannot be ordered, and just lock onto a target and attack." >plants as shields You know, you could just have a seed that uses a shield effect when you use it. I GUESS summoning a plant that uses its shield ability when the time is right would be okay, but why? >if my gardens are destroyed do I lose the seeds that I harvested from them? ... of course not. Though for your particular character, a spell that summons a permanent guardian for your garden would fit (though it wouldn't be terribly useful). You are the EXACT kind of player that playtests are for. Cool. But maybe I'll make whatshisface or that other guy to play a Gatherer so's we can try a more vanilla one.
Stance Heal Slash Holy Fire Judgement Str/Qui 2/6 (Body 4) Kno/Cle 2/2 (Mind 2) Pre/Att 3/4 (Spirit 3) Rough Backstory: Orphan. Monastery. Christian-like, with hellfire and judgementalness. Stupid due to emphasis on knowledge and cleverness as "tools of evil". Low Strenght due to an enforced Vegan diet. Spent equal time between the library and the sparring courtyard. Was granted the gift of holy fire by a powerful angel-like spirit and told to go forth and punish the unworthy. Loves his job. He's not quite smart enough to understand that sometimes the world isn't black and white, but is just Attuned enough spiritually to know when things aren't necessarily what they seem, so he feels like he's capable of doing a good job crushing evildoers. Mechanically: Emphasizes healing and buffing allies. All of his attacks will be Slashes and Hammers, all switched to Quickness for massive offensive power. Obviously a melee whore. Spell List: Bleeding Seraph Bathes the Penitent: (Holy Stance): For the next 2 rounds, I heal 1 HP each round, ignore the first point of damage I take each round, and any Strike or Curse effects I activate auto-fail. Those near me ignore the first point of damage they take each round. (This basically forces me into a healing role for 3 rounds, which I don't really mind, cause I'm hella good at it.) Tortured Phoenix Bathes the Penitent: (Fire Stance): For the next 2 rounds, the first 2 people who attack me each round get auto-counterattacked for 1 damage. Those who stand near me take +1 damage from all sources. (This is a huge offense booster if we concentrate our fire. We can get +1 damage per player per round just from me standing near the bad guys.) Bleeding Seraph Embraces The Needy: Target is healed for 4, ignores the next point of damage it takes, and can't use Strike or Curse effects the next round. If this ability is used on that target again in the next 3 rounds, the target is only healed for 2 (other effects still happen.) (This is awesome!) Tortured Phoenix Embraces The Needy: Target is healed for 4, then attacked 3x for 1 each (using my Strength, which is nominal, so this will usually heal for at least 2.) The next two people who attack the target are automatically counterattacked for 1 damage. (Not sure how often this will be useful, but will make a good "first heal" to save Holy Heal for when it's needed more later.) Bleeding Seraph Punishes the Wicked: Target takes 1 damage and is -1 on his next attack. (My default attack.) Tortured Phoenix Punishes the Wicked: +1 on this attack. Target takes 3 damage, and I take 1. (Would work nicely with Holy Stance, but Holy Stance keeps me from attacking. Darn.) Bleeding Seraph Disabuses the Unworthy: Target takes 2 damage and is -2 on his next attack. I lose -1 Body and -1 Mind next round. (Not sure how useful this will be, but more combat options are nice.) Tortured Phoenix Disabuses the Unworthy: +1 on this attack. Target takes 6 (!!!!) damage, and I take 2 and am at -1 Body and -1 Mind next round. (Badass asskickery all around. This will be my Finishing Blow on a regular basis.)
Take a feat, too. Something similar to the samples. Make one up if you gotta. God knows Omni was happy to tell me what to make for him.
