Sewer Brew achievment.

You could always change the achievement to allow for people to send in pictures of them drinking or making it for drinking "x" amounts of alcoholic beverage in-game.

 

> I think Daniel was making noise about how "oh, we have to attend a games conference in Europe."

Europe sound promising

 

I see that you changed the achievement to:

Sewer Brew
Meet somebody from Gaslamp Games and consume Alcholic Beverages in their presence.

And I do guess that its an improvement from the original but still leaves 95% or more of us in a situation that we will never even have a chance of getting it. Really wish I could get all achievements for this game but this still makes me feel hopeless about it and...that ruins my enjoyment of the game somewhat. I know that some of you think that is stupid but when achievements are included I simply enjoy making the most out of it and this just bums me out.

Thanks for listening to my complaints and at least making a bit of change to it even if it was not quite what I had hoped for (unless you added yourself into the game and you only need to be near "you" and drink a beverages ). Achievements should really have to do with something IN the game and not outside of it but you are far from the first to do something like this.

Can add the comment that I do love all the other achievements added, really adds to the fun of the game with some random stuff, some stuff you need to work against and some really funny references (such as the Deus Ex one)

So in general you have a GREAT idea what achievements should be like...for all but the Sewer Brew one.

 

i rather see it also changed into drinking all kinds of beverages in the game

 

Hi guys

I really hated when TW put achievements into Killing Floor that are connected to an event (Portal, ...) and aren´t achievable after the events, because I really like achievements and try to get as many as possible for the games I like or love.
I skip some achievements (because some are too hard or need too much time), but I know that I can do them, when I have the time or the skill to achieve them.

Long story short, please change the achievement in a way, that it´s possible to also get it in-game, make it a really tough one if you like, but give people (who are not able to celebrate with you) the chance to get it.

PS: sorry for my english

 

I think it's actually a very solid achievement: Meet the staff. Just the fact that it isn't obtainable in the game itself, doesn't make it less of an achievement. It's quite the achievement to meet them, isn't it?

 

Hm... I wouldn´t call it solid. Game achievements should be game achievements.

But why not make it an or achievement, like "Drink with a developer or drink every alcoholic beverage in the game in alphabetical order"

With that "or" I think most people would be happy.

 

If you want a hard drinking-based achievement, it should be something more like "Feed every drink in the game to Dredmor." Assuming it's possible to give booze to enemies, clearly getting everyones' favorite lich roaring drunk should be an achievement.

 

Why?

Achievements, like every other part of game development (and every other creative medium, for that matter) "should" be whatever the creators want them to be. There's no rulebook for art, and thank god for that. I say good on them for having a bit of out-of-the-ordinary fun with that one. It fits perfectly well with the self-referential nature of the rest of the game anyway.

 

I like that, but I don´t know if it´s possible. (Btw: My achievement suggestion was just an example.)

Of course art has no rulebook, but DoD and most of the media aren´t pure art, almost everything in media is a compromise between the freedom of creation and the selling of the product (if it´s a product). And keeping that in mind that ""should" be whatever the creators want them to be" argument is broken in itself, at least in my book.

Your post sounded like I have said something to reduce the freedom of the developers but what I said was just another compromise (an addition to be exactly), I respect that they want to do something "out-of-the-ordinary" but why can´t it be this and that?

 

How many achievements do you know of that are "do X, or do Y"? Not that I pay much attention to achievements, but I don't think I've ever seen one give you a choice like that.

 

Only one comes to mind (see below), but if you are concerned about the technical aspect, I believe it can be done, but most games won´t because they just make two achievements, but in this special case that´s the problem

Borderlands has one that is really interesting in many ways and a fair one too: And They´ll Tell Two Friends: Play in a co-op game with either an employee of Gearbox or someone who has this achievement

(btw: many games have this kind of "play with a dev" achievements but Borderlands has done it right and encourages people to play online with other people and not to stalk the devs and their steam accounts)

PS: I´ll check if I can find a real "this or that" achievement.

 

I'm not concerned about technical aspects. I'm sure the achievement code is basically just like an assert -- achieve(dredmor.HP <= 0 and difficulty == Going Rogue, ACHIEVEMENT_BEAT_ROGUE). It's more that, as you said, if you have two different things you can do to get an achievement, usually that's two achievements.

That Borderlands achievement is interesting but I don't think it's really the same thing -- really it could be called "Play Borderlands with someone who already has this achievement", with the caveat being that when the game is released only Borderlands employees had the achievement. The thing you do to get the achievement is the same regardless.

 

Yes, that´s why I said I try to find a real "this or that" achievement. I found a few "or" ones, but they are like the one in Borderlands, basically the same

But even if I can find some, it doesn´t matter, it´s up to the devs, maybe they reconsider it maybe not. I hope they do

 

Yeah, because you did. Let me put it this way: if making a compromise (an addition, to be exact) is acceptable, I would suggest simply adding another condition to your "I want to get all the achievements" reasoning, so it becomes "I want to either get all the achievements or not get all the achievements". Yes? No? Can appending new conditions actually be a significant change to something after all?

Look, if you prefer to be able to get all the achievements within the game, that's not for me to worry about; the devs can either cater to your desires or not, as they please. I just think it's kind of dishonest for people to act as if their preferences are self-evident rules ("game achievements should be game achievements", "Borderlands has done it right", ChrisFiftyTwo's "achievements should really have to do with something IN the game and not outside of it").

 

I thought about what I wrote and what you wrote (last post and this one) and you are right with some things. The idea of adding another condition is decreasing the freedom of creation. I still think that it´s a compromise that is acceptable, because it won´t remove something the developers had in mind while creating the achievement.

But I cannot agree with your example "I want to either get all the achievements or not get all the achievements" to make your point because that is not what my "or" idea does, your example has two different outcomes, mine has to different ways to acquire the same outcome.

Normally I try to make it clear that something I say is just my opinion but in this case I choose my words poorly and a strange undertone followed that wasn´t intended. The "Borderlands has done it right" was clearly OT and was expressed wrong. The meaning behind it is still present and is my opinion. Many games followed that "include the developers into the game achievements" and I´m fine with that, but if you look at some of the games that have stuff like this you will see how hard is is to get these achievements without stalking the devs. Gearbox started the achievement with the developers but due to the nature of its conditions it was given to the community and I really like and respect that. In fact it´s one of my favorite achievements.

I won´t step back from my "game achievements should be game achievements" words, I try to explain why:

Cloverfield and the Lost series both included other media in their franchise (viral Inet campaigns, mobisodes, comics, ...) but this stuff wasn´t necessary to fully follow and enjoy the main products, it was additional content.

How would you feel if your favorite author is releasing a new book but the last chapter with the conclusion of the story isn´t included, but you could get it from him if you "just" visit him.

I know that both examples have problems and are overstated but hopefully they make clear what I was trying to say, steam achievements are part of the games that have them and so I think they should be achievable through actually playing the game (too). I know that not all people care about them, but that isn´t important, I don´t care about controller support either but that doesn´t mean that a controller option can only be acquired through repairing the car of a developer.

Steam achievements might not be the last chapter of a book, but they might be chapter titles for some people.

 

I've only been watching this from the sidelines, but I think I have another good example. The second Matrix movie (I won't call it a sequel) was made alongside a video game; the game got some of the actors providing voices, and they even filmed some footage to use as cutscenes. Problem was, the third movie basically started off where the game (and the in-between animated collection) ended, and assumed the viewer was familiar with both items. For someone just watching the movies, they would've been left thinking "who the heck is this guy?" or "How'd they end up there?"

It's one thing to include alternate media in a presentation. We've been doing it all the time. It's another to require the audience to have it on-hand.

Carry on.

 

Of course, achievements are nothing if not optional. So that seems rather orthogonal to the discussion.

 

Exactly. Achievements are totally external to the game and are steam-only. They do not affect your score, the do not affect your success in future play-throughs. They are an out of game way of tracking irrelevant minutia.

As I said before, in non-computer gaming, there has been a tradition of giving away actual, physical, free stuff at conventions that are only available at that convention. For example, for some CCGs, and even non-collectable card games (Munchkin, for example) there have been game/tournament-legal cards given away at conventions that are not available anywhere else. People have accepted this without protest. The DoD example is, if anything, much more... irrelevant/innocuous than how it's generally done in the physical game world. The only reason why people are upset is that it's posted on Steam (which to me, just feels like something kind of silly to be upset about, but then again, I'm of the generation that doesn't post everything in their life on facebook). It's something that can only be upsetting if you consciously let it be so. In other words, it's a manufactured controversy (you know, kind of like what the 24-hour news networks currently label as 'news' -- only real in the minds of the bored masses).

My advice, and I know I'll get flamed for this: "Get over it!"

 

@Haldurson: I love you for mentioning Munchkin. That series is flipping awesome.